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West Ham (A) - verdict

It must drive Nuno wild as Traore is actually pretty effective when he drifts centrally and runs at players - it means teams struggle to double up on him. Just for some reason he is reluctant to do it at times.
 
I'm going to do this cold without reading this thread or the matchday one. The first goal was great/stupid refereeing depending on your view, very good finish though. After that second best all over the pitch, Neto and Rui the only players to come out with any credit. Semedo looked like a competition winner, didn't matter where we were on the pitch, he was out of position, can't give a total pass, but obviously a wait and see. The Haller goal was the type conceded by teams who are going down. We aren't, but 10 yards out and heading the ball without having to get off the ground is just awful.

Vitinha and Silva recruitments look like vanity projects at the moment. Not that they are bad players, just not what this team needs.

We let Antonio bully Coady, normally Bennett and Boly would sort that out, tonight nobody did. I'm very worried about what Boly is becoming
 
Coady, Boly & Saiss all WAY below where they need to be. All three bullied by one striker - Antonio (who was excellent and I would take him here in a heartbeat but I guarantee people would scoff at him). In fact the form of all three centre backs is concerning and none of them really have any pressure on their starting place. Coady in particular is worrying me. He looked like he was running in treacle at times and his place in the side is a given every week.

Moutinho/Neves isn’t working. As I said in the match day thread, they don’t offer any cover for the defence - but they don’t get in the box when we are attacking. So what exactly are they doing? They’re certainly not managing the game from the middle. I’ve no idea why Donk lost his place after his performance against Sheffield Utd. That ones on Nuno.

Raul seems frustrated and Adama/Neto just get their head down and run - there’s no link up play between any of them, which is a huge backwards step on the last few seasons. That said, I do feel for the wide players who get to the byline multiple times in a match and then look up and there’s no one in the box. That’s been the case for months now - why hasn’t Nuno done something about it?

I don’t think it’s unfair to say we should expect to see a bit more from Fabio Silva either. Hoever on the other hand, looked promising.

I would like to see a new LWB signed in the next week of a similar level to Semedo (who blew hot and cold tonight but he’ll come good). Vinagre is no where near good enough. If Thomas Lemar is a genuine option then I would get that sorted ASAP as well. Without Podence tonight we looked like a team of individuals.

I thought most of that was bang on. Was a truly awful performance in all aspects. Nuno will get hold of them before Fulham and improve us for then I’m sure, but I’m hoping we can change something fairly substantial - for such a quick team, we were rarely behind them, we passed backwards so much that they were always in their defensive positions.
 
Well that was fucking embarrassing, our back three made Antonio look like peak Drogba.

Ponderous was as good as we got on the ball, very little penetration and invention, just give it to neto or traore and let them dribble until they lose it. Very easy to defend against. Vitinha the only bright spark for me.

Tactically, I don't get how we're going to be able to evolve to a controlling style with a 343 system - it's not a formation that lends itself to dominating and threatening imo, but we don't really have the personnel for a 352. I'm also not sure it's a great idea to try and change a successful style when we've had no preseason tbh.

We've got a net spend of zero and 8 days to go. We need a centre half and a progressive centre midfielder, and also hope that one of neto, podence and traore can adapt to becoming a half decent strike partner for Raul, and give him somebody to play off because we're bloody toothless atm.
 
I don't have any worries regarding that with Coads. He's had this kind of game before and he'll have it again, sometimes we mitigate it and sometimes we don't.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with how he played against Sheff Utd or Man City.

That and the fact Antonio was superb, he was fucking brilliant. I didn't see it all ( I pay for BT Sports but my mates decided some shit stream in the pub was better) Neto was OK everyone else was evident in the score line.
 
On reflection, and sipping a large pino to contemplate, it truly is a really, really poor performance. Defensively absolutely dreadful, which I rate for us as usually pretty solid. Coady always struggles with a pacey, big direct forward sitting on him all game, but still. Boly has been poor last few games, and even in to last year for me.
Is it cause for concern? Surely playing LCB or RCB doesn’t make that much difference? Or have we just undervalued the Value of Jonny?

Slow and ponderous in midfield. If we are to sign 1 more player, I really think it’s A centre mid we need with legs .
 
Someone like Soumare who can beat a man in the middle of the park as well as run and pass would make a huge difference.
 
I dont want us to abandon 343 for anything other than a 433 (only way to win the league) we were shit no doubt about it. Still we won't do that shit every week.
 
Someone on twitter said that the four teams who played most recently in Europe have picked up 13 points from 10 games.

We've looked awful, City have, united we're so lucky against Brighton too. Bayern and PSG have been struggling a bit too.

It's no excuse but offers a bit of context

Bless you for your optimism.

Been to bed. Can't sleep. Bloody angry. Wonder why

Oh and those of you taking cheap shots at people like me Prawn, Norman D Premier Jinky, who dare to be rightly a little concerned need to stop being so twatish. That includes you bear! We are all passionate fans who hurt when we lose even more when stuffed out of sight by an average side like today. It was a shit show and the aforementioned called it as such and many of the usual suspects did not acknowledge that choosing to send posters Pelter's when the team deserved it.

Better buck up for Fulham. Fuck that up and you wait to see some meltdowns
 
Bless you for your optimism.

Been to bed. Can't sleep. Bloody angry. Wonder why

Oh and those of you taking cheap shots at people like me Prawn, Norman D Premier Jinky, who dare to be rightly a little concerned need to stop being so twatish. That includes you bear! We are all passionate fans who hurt when we lose even more when stuffed out of sight by an average side like today. It was a shit show and the aforementioned called it as such and many of the usual suspects did not acknowledge that choosing to send posters Pelter's when the team deserved it.

Better buck up for Fulham. Fuck that up and you wait to see some meltdowns

This seems a genuinely unhealthy response. You good?
 
This seems a genuinely unhealthy response. You good?

Well tbf he couldn't respond to the circle jerk Bear initiated on the build up thread as it was conveniently locked straight afterwards. He's just venting, his team has just suffered their worse defeat in eight years.

Not everyone views football forensically and demands months of 'evidence' before committing themselves.

I love the ugly, raw side of the matchday threads. I'm happy to say how I feel in the heat of the moment, whether it's positive, negative or pretty neutral. We're not writing political manifestos here
 
Bless you for your optimism.

Been to bed. Can't sleep. Bloody angry. Wonder why

Oh and those of you taking cheap shots at people like me Prawn, Norman D Premier Jinky, who dare to be rightly a little concerned need to stop being so twatish. That includes you bear! We are all passionate fans who hurt when we lose even more when stuffed out of sight by an average side like today. It was a shit show and the aforementioned called it as such and many of the usual suspects did not acknowledge that choosing to send posters Pelter's when the team deserved it.

Better buck up for Fulham. Fuck that up and you wait to see some meltdowns

Erm....you really think you and the others you mention are the only ones that are concerned about this performance? Not sure you've actually read the comments on this thread.
Seems to me that due to our last few seasons performances, plus the signings we've just made ( most feel we've had a decent window) have led to an arrogance both from our players and our fans (I include myself). Everyone thought we just had to rock up and give crap West Ham a footballing lesson. Maybe it was a kick up the arse we all needed to show us there's still a lot of work to do.
 
Erm....you really think you and the others you mention are the only ones that are concerned about this performance? Not sure you've actually read the comments on this thread.

I'm not sure you've read his post!

Everyone's concerned, but not everyone is given a free pass to moan.

Happy for people to disagree with me, not happy to be pulled up dismissively by people for saying something thoroughly uncontroversial, to then watch them ignore their mates saying the same (or worse), and certainly not happy being warned about 'tone' by the wannabe Matt Hancocks on here
 
I'm not sure you've read his post!

Everyone's concerned, but not everyone is given a free pass to moan.

Happy for people to disagree with me, not happy to be pulled up dismissively by people for saying something thoroughly uncontroversial, to then watch them ignore their mates saying the same (or worse), and certainly not happy being warned about 'tone' by the wannabe Matt Hancocks on here

Again, it's the way you moan that gets on some people's nerves.

Your first post in this thread was much more palatable than the stuff in the match thread, as an example.
 
Well tbf he couldn't respond to the circle jerk Bear initiated on the build up thread as it was conveniently locked straight afterwards.
I knew you were likely to respond with that. It was a good 20-30 min before it was locked after my post. I made sure you had plenty of time to reply.

Your post early in this thread is an example that you do post well at times. It's just the constant need to try and beat down optimism for the new season after some decent signings that grates with people.
 
Erm....you really think you and the others you mention are the only ones that are concerned about this performance? Not sure you've actually read the comments on this thread.
Seems to me that due to our last few seasons performances, plus the signings we've just made ( most feel we've had a decent window) have led to an arrogance both from our players and our fans (I include myself). Everyone thought we just had to rock up and give crap West Ham a footballing lesson. Maybe it was a kick up the arse we all needed to show us there's still a lot of work to do.

And that's fair enough. We had a collective shocker yesterday against a team who will be nowhere near the top six come the end of the season. We are not in a good place since lock down and have played to our capabilities for about 20 mins against Sheff UTD and about 30 against a tired Man City when they were two up. Since lock down we have lost to Arsenal Sheff U Sevilla Stoke Man City and west ham. That's a poor run masked by victories over Olympiakos West Ham Sheff U and Bournemouth. Yes at the moment I am worried. We do not look cohesive ,solid or threatening so problems in all areas of the pitch that need to be sorted quickly.
 
Well, that was unexpected! And not worth waking myself up at 4am for :icon_lol:

Don't agree with any of the calls on here for sudden changes in personnel, suddenly X and Y aren't good enough or can't play together, Z looks like a competition winner, quick buy more players, etc. The problem isn't the personnel (barring mistakes and poor performances, obviously, and I know there have been plenty recently). They've been successful for 2-3 seasons now in our style and don't become shit overnight - and you don't lose 4-0 because one player should've started rather than be on the subs bench, etc, etc. There was just something horribly wrong with the system and shape yesterday and we made it very easy for them. While I'm excited to see how we'll make tweaks and evolve, part of my brain is also more about "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Gotta get that balance between the evolution but not end up losing one of your main strengths during the change.

Our success has been mostly built on being REALLY hard to score against. The last couple of games we've been far too easy to get at. We've gone from an amazing defensive shape and unit I have absolute faith in, to one leaking so many chances against. Pretty sure WH had more opportunities in the first half last night than our previous 4 meetings combined. We looked so exposed constantly. And I get it, you can't just click your fingers and suddenly we're playing in a different way flawlessly - it'll take time - but we've looked awful for 3 out of the last 4 halves of football.

I'm no tactical genius, but felt like Neves and Moutinho are both playing a bit further forward. Which so far hasn't reeeaaally benefitted us in the final third. What it does mean is that it has been easier to get through them, they aren't as close to the back 3 to provide that extra layer. Semedo looked brilliant on the ball yesterday, but he spent more time further forward than Doc, I think, and combined with Neves and Moutinho seemingly being further out of ye olde shape, there was just so much space on so many occasions. We were incredibly vulnerable to the counter, which is a headache the top teams have also had to navigate. There was none of that pattern of play we've been so used to re: our shape and shepherding players wide about 25 yards out before a combo of a WB and CM either pushing them back, forcing a mistake, nicking possession, etc.

Also, as bad as we were, surprisingly credit to West Ham as they out 3-4-3ed us and looked a constant threat while making us look out of ideas going forward. I thought Masuaku was excellent.

Sorry, long and a bit rambly, but just wanted to reiterate that I don't think the personnel are the problem. We don't suddenly need 2 new CMs or CBs whatever. More that this tweaking of shape and approach is just gonna need a lot more fine-tuning if it is going to work.
 
I think not having a decent break and pre-season has hurt us, and we aren't the only ones in that boat. Chelsea, Man United and man city have all looked off colour
 
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