West Ham (A) - verdict

[YoungWolf]

Agree- think Donck will come back in for the next game whether it be in the back 3 or midfield. Tempted to say you put him in for coady if we are going to have a repeat of Antonio when he faces Mitrovic... but that would be a massive thing to do which would disrupt us in other ways

 

[Premier Quality]

I thought it was systemic as well as individuals not playing well - it looked like we were trying to be more possession based, but lost the fast moving attacking - too much passing backwards which meant West Ham could get numbers behind the ball and get their shape - and not enough link up play going forwards, which meant we were reliant on someone dribbling past a couple of players to make anything happen. We also had our midfielders further forward and the defence pushing up, which meant that with one long pass, West Ham could quickly get on top of/behind our defenders which caused loads of problems.

It just looked like we are moving to a possession based system but the players don’t really know how to do it yet.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Is it just my impression or do we often seem to struggle against teams that match our system? Chelsea at the end of last season and yesterday certainly come to mind but other games too. We don't seem to know how to play against ourselves. And let's be honest, West Ham did it far better than us yesterday.

 

[PuntsWolf]

It was just all wrong yesterday. Set up badly and bad performances.

We somehow managed to push players forward but still end up with massive gaps between defence, midfield and attack.

Neves and Moutinho were neither close enough to the defenders to offer protection or close enough to the forwards to contribute in the final third. Saiss, Coady and Boly were embarrassingly bad though. But they’ve kind of had it relatively easy before where the system protects their deficiencies but now they are being exposed and found out.

It’s a bit like when big clubs signs defenders from smaller clubs, and then they flop. Big clubs need their defenders to be able to defend 1 v 1, really testing their ability, and then they get found wanting.

As good as Saiss has been in our system, not sure he is the answer for a top 6 team. And god knows what’s happened to Boly, constantly got a mistake in him, or like last night, several.

 

[AndyWolves]

Re: the evolution: You have to have faith in Nuno, he's earned that, but last night made me think this is a multiple transfer window, multiple season job.

All we've really done in terms of squad development is sign a Doc-max and some very promising understudies. We don't seem to have signed anyone with a skillset radically different from what's already in the squad? I'd have thought we needed that if we're changing from counter attacking to a more possession based style?

To conclude on what I'm sure will be perceived as a negative note, I actually agree with Del earlier in the thread in that I'm a bit unsure that the timing of this sea change is really sensible, with the limited pre season and chance to bed a new style in.

I don't think Nuno is above changing course if what he's trying obviously isn't working, but I hope we're not going down the Solbakken route of trying to get a squad to do what it isn't suited to. Time will tell, none of us has much to go on right now

I agree with all of that

 

[YoungWolf]

It was just all wrong yesterday. Set up badly and bad performances.

We somehow managed to push players forward but still end up with massive gaps between defence, midfield and attack.

Neves and Moutinho were neither close enough to the defenders to offer protection or close enough to the forwards to contribute in the final third. Saiss, Coady and Boly were embarrassingly bad though. But they’ve kind of had it relatively easy before where the system protects their deficiencies but now they are being exposed and found out.

It’s a bit like when big clubs signs defenders from smaller clubs, and then they flop. Big clubs need their defenders to be able to defend 1 v 1, really testing their ability, and then they get found wanting.

As good as Saiss has been in our system, not sure he is the answer for a top 6 team. And god knows what’s happened to Boly, constantly got a mistake in him, or like last night, several.

Completely agree.

Not seen enough of Hoever 1v1 defending but he looks mobile and technically good, think he could really suit the right centre back role. Then we need Boly/Saiss to up their game or be able to cope with a higher line/defending more space.

 

[prawnking]

I'm trying not to take all the press about Nuno 'deciding after Sevilla that we needed a change' and evolution talk too much at face value, his thought process is undoubtedly more complicated than that, and I love that he's thinking of what the next phase is, and how we can make that next leap, but I'd have thought turning into a possession side would be much more expensive than just improving our established style with better players.

If we want to challenge the top 6, turning into a possession team seems to be doing it on their terms, that's fine but won't it cost millions we can't /won't spend?

 

[PuntsWolf]

Traore was essentially playing in a different shape to everyone else, it often doesn't matter what opponents put against him such as West Ham basically putting two left backs against him, he'll still get to the byline and put crosses in but was only ever Jimenez to aim for and even he wasn't there half the time, what's the point in persisting with that? Also means Semedo is forced to play narrow which probably seems pretty alien to him after spending the last few years with the whole flank to explore as Messi comes central, obviously early days but that partnership didn't feel very natural tonight. Traore has to start to play that role like the alternatives do, narrower!

Vitinha and Silva at least looked to change the dynamic when they came on, they both came towards the ball looking to provide an option, the latter looks a bit lightweight at the moment but little Portu-Grealish in midfield looks like he'll flit around all over the place looking to get on the ball again and again, opposed to Neves only wanting to receive square passes from the centre halves. The was a clearance from West Ham late in the game where the 6 players closest to Wolves' goal were all Wolves players, how do you expect to break down or even worry a very defensive team if you're only willing to commit 4 or 5 players into their half? The midfield have to trust the defence to launch attacks more often and then have to be brave enough to receive the ball in tight spaces with their backs to goal to try and shift the ball up the field, they can't always come really deep and look to play 40-50 yard passes to the attacking contingent.

Yes. Traore playing as a winger is just detrimental to us. Unless it’s bang on Jiménez head, it’s not going to work. Need the forwards to play narrower. Semedo looked lost and I feel sorry for him. He worked a good few give and go’s with Traore, but obviously he never got it back and then was wildly out of position. Then started moving inside and playing inverted. It should be your forward receiving the ball in these tight spaces, not a RB.

With Neves playing so deep, we basically don’t have enough players in the final third to hurt teams. This has always been a problem and if we are trying to me more progressive will become even more of a problem.

I'm going to do this cold without reading this thread or the matchday one. The first goal was great/stupid refereeing depending on your view, very good finish though. After that second best all over the pitch, Neto and Rui the only players to come out with any credit. Semedo looked like a competition winner, didn't matter where we were on the pitch, he was out of position, can't give a total pass, but obviously a wait and see. The Haller goal was the type conceded by teams who are going down. We aren't, but 10 yards out and heading the ball without having to get off the ground is just awful.

Vitinha and Silva recruitments look like vanity projects at the moment. Not that they are bad players, just not what this team needs.

We let Antonio bully Coady, normally Bennett and Boly would sort that out, tonight nobody did. I'm very worried about what Boly is becoming

Agree except Semedo had no chance tonight playing behind 2018 Traore.

Well, that was unexpected! And not worth waking myself up at 4am for :icon_lol:

Don't agree with any of the calls on here for sudden changes in personnel, suddenly X and Y aren't good enough or can't play together, Z looks like a competition winner, quick buy more players, etc. The problem isn't the personnel (barring mistakes and poor performances, obviously, and I know there have been plenty recently). They've been successful for 2-3 seasons now in our style and don't become shit overnight - and you don't lose 4-0 because one player should've started rather than be on the subs bench, etc, etc. There was just something horribly wrong with the system and shape yesterday and we made it very easy for them. While I'm excited to see how we'll make tweaks and evolve, part of my brain is also more about "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Gotta get that balance between the evolution but not end up losing one of your main strengths during the change.

Our success has been mostly built on being REALLY hard to score against. The last couple of games we've been far too easy to get at. We've gone from an amazing defensive shape and unit I have absolute faith in, to one leaking so many chances against. Pretty sure WH had more opportunities in the first half last night than our previous 4 meetings combined. We looked so exposed constantly. And I get it, you can't just click your fingers and suddenly we're playing in a different way flawlessly - it'll take time - but we've looked awful for 3 out of the last 4 halves of football.

I'm no tactical genius, but felt like Neves and Moutinho are both playing a bit further forward. Which so far hasn't reeeaaally benefitted us in the final third. What it does mean is that it has been easier to get through them, they aren't as close to the back 3 to provide that extra layer. Semedo looked brilliant on the ball yesterday, but he spent more time further forward than Doc, I think, and combined with Neves and Moutinho seemingly being further out of ye olde shape, there was just so much space on so many occasions. We were incredibly vulnerable to the counter, which is a headache the top teams have also had to navigate. There was none of that pattern of play we've been so used to re: our shape and shepherding players wide about 25 yards out before a combo of a WB and CM either pushing them back, forcing a mistake, nicking possession, etc.

Also, as bad as we were, surprisingly credit to West Ham as they out 3-4-3ed us and looked a constant threat while making us look out of ideas going forward. I thought Masuaku was excellent.

Sorry, long and a bit rambly, but just wanted to reiterate that I don't think the personnel are the problem. We don't suddenly need 2 new CMs or CBs whatever. More that this tweaking of shape and approach is just gonna need a lot more fine-tuning if it is going to work.

It’s all pretty accurate.

 

[The Bear]

I'm trying not to take all the press about Nuno 'deciding after Sevilla that we needed a change' and evolution talk too much at face value, his thought process is undoubtedly more complicated than that, and I love that he's thinking of what the next phase is, and how we can make that next leap, but I'd have thought turning into a possession side would be much more expensive than just improving our established style with better players.

If we want to challenge the top 6, turning into a possession team seems to be doing it on their terms, that's fine but won't it cost millions we can't /won't spend?

I think it's more evolution of the system rather than revolution. Getting players who are better on the ball and don't lose it as often. Hence Jota and Doc leaving and players like Marcal, Semedo and Hoever coming in. The Portugese kids are just calculated gambles. Even if they don't pay off in 2-3 years we should get the majority of our money back for them.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think it's more evolution of the system rather than revolution. Getting players who are better on the ball and don't lose it as often. Hence Jota and Doc leaving and players like Marcal, Semedo and Hoever coming in. The Portugese kids are just calculated gambles. Even if they don't pay off in 2-3 years we should get the majority of our money back for them.

If people are really questioning the likes of Fabio and Vitinha at the moment then they need to give their head a shake.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Anyway, just to expand on what I typed last night:

https://oscillatingwildly.net/defensive-debrief-west-ham-4-0-wolves/

 

[prawnking]

If people are really questioning the likes of Fabio and Vitinha at the moment then they need to give their head a shake.

I don't think people are?

I genuinely don't know enough about them to go to either extreme, but I'm optimistic about them because we don't tend to throw money around, and we also have a very good hit rate with transfers. I would have them pegged as more Raul/Moutinho understudies (which we desperately needed) than guaranteed starters, although it depends on their flexibility and how they impress Nuno on the pitch.

If we're talking about whether this window has helped Nuno get closer to his new vision, it's surely only Semedo and Marcal we're expecting to get lots of game time, the Portuguese and Hoever are surely going to be eased in?

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

I liked what I saw of Vitinha, and I thought Fabio was fine. Hoever was decent too, in fact the one shall we say highlight was the introduction of the new players. Sameda and Traore don't understand each others game yet but that's to be expected.

I'm disappointed in the performance of the team overall and I do have some concerns at things not going right. I'm not calling for the team to be publicly flogged but we need to be doing our own investigation into that performance with hopefully some better performances in the next couple of games.

If the rot hasn't been cut out in these games then there will be cause for concern.

 

[prawnking]

Anyway, just to expand on what I typed last night:

https://oscillatingwildly.net/defensive-debrief-west-ham-4-0-wolves/

Lovely, detailed and eminently readable analysis. Thanks for that.

I like how your writing has real personality but isn't overbearing with it

 

[Kenny]

I thought Fabio was fine

My biggest issue with young Fabs is his desire to hit the deck and roll around like he has just suffered multiple breaks to his bones after the slightest touch, verging on Neymar levels of play acting. I hope that is beaten out of him very soon by the club

 

[PuntsWolf]

Anyway, just to expand on what I typed last night:

https://oscillatingwildly.net/defensive-debrief-west-ham-4-0-wolves/

I agree with all of that. I don’t like the blaming of Atkinson though. We (or I) constantly moan when a ref is too stop start and ruining the flow of the game.

Boly has broken up a decent break for WHU with some brain dead defending. The offensive team would liked to have had the advantage but Boly wiped him out. I think the ball had just about stopped, and 5 yards ahead is pretty standard for free kicks in the middle of the pitch, they are rarely take from the precise point. Anyway the team committing the offence, they are the ones being punished breaking up play. We’d be livid if that was disallowed against us.

I’d rather concentrate on the shambolic attempts at defending from first Boly and then Saiss. Get your own house in order. This isn’t the first time Saiss has allowed someone to just walk inside onto their strong foot without even having to try, although Coady is just as bad at it too.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

My biggest issue with young Fabs is his desire to hit the deck and roll around like he has just suffered multiple breaks to his bones after the slightest touch, verging on Neymar levels of play acting. I hope that is beaten out of him very soon by the club

Yeah there is a bit if that, maybe not jump up straight off the floor from rolling around might help

 

[The Bion]

Jota was like that at the start. He'll knock it on the head when he realises refs won't blow for everything.

 

[YoungWolf]

Pedro is still feeling the full force of that Nuno stare when he took him off in the Villa cup game last season after he dived :icon_lol:

 

[Boozad]

My biggest concern (beyond conceding four) was the fact that we had 63% possession and managed to do the square root of fuck all with it. The play was so slow and laboured that when we did manage to get forward they had ample time to get nine men back behind the ball leaving us nowhere to go. The fact we had 11 shots with only 2 on target and 5 blocked just emphasises we were reverting to taking pot shots. Nearly double the amount of passes than them and more than double in the attacking third again goes to show we were doing nothing with it with exactly 0 clear cut chances created.

It was the antithesis of what we’re about and we got battered by our own game. So while the stats do show we were definitely playing a more possession based game it means nothing if you can’t do anything with it. Personally I don’t think Semedo and Traore will work, Traore just hasn’t got the awareness or tactical nous to get the best out Semedo and I really think Neto will work better there. Podence on the left with Marcal behind and hopefully that makes a huge difference. I think Donck should be brought back in as well, he was fine against Sheff Utd and Neves and Moutinho just don’t look to have worked as a pairing in the last two games, we’re basically attacking with just three players at the moment and it’s too easy to stifle, Donck’s runs would give the opposition something else to think about and make space for others.