Wolves are for sale and Darlo wants some smooth thighs

[Alan]

My edit was too slow.

It was a clever catch.

You understand my point though, I hope. Our glory days in the 60's don't score goals or keep a defense organized. At best they're a pitch to prospective players/managers/executives to wake up a so-called "sleeping giant".

I appreciate our history very much. It's part of what made me settle on Wolves as a club I wanted to support. I also appreciate that Kenny Hibbit has nothing to do with Kevin McDonald.

Sorry, the whole "history makes us deserve things now" mindset is a sporting pet peeve I've harbored for ages.

 

[Derby Wolf]

Alan mate, it is new year's eve. If Wolves history doesn't mean anything to you, that is your choice. I could put a list of all the historical records we have achieved, but I am sure you will know them. It doesn't matter what league we are in, we are still Wolverhampton Wanderers Football club.
I can only see 6 to 7 matches a year because of logistics. When I go to Molineux or to an away match and the players march out wearing those Old Gold shirts, I still get shivers going down my spine. It is history, it is a feeling you can't explain. When I leave my local not too far from Molineux stadium, on a night match. I walk up alley ways, walking with hundreds of people , towards the floodlights. I still imagine the old floodlights outside the South Bank. The old night matches with over 50,000 people. I still hear the crowd singing John Richards, Willie Carr on the Wing
, I can hear the old North Bank singing Those were the days. I can remember many running battles outside the ground. I can remember spending all my paperboy money to follow Wolves all over the country. Nobody can tell you Wolves are a big club. If you don't think they are, I can understand that. Nobody can make you feel something. I know Wolves are a big club, shit team yes, but still a big club. It doesn't matter what league we are in, that won't change in my life time.

I've disagreed with you recently but I can't say a word against that level of passion and commitment, it's obvious you're Wolves through and through as is Cyberman and fair play. I'm much younger than you but as a youngster I used to love hearing the atmosphere from West Park as my dad parked up and my first AST was paid for by my paper round... It really resonates what you wrote and I don't think any club should be ashamed of their history be it ourselves, Forest or Leeds but I do think there's a fine line between being bloody proud of our history and using that history to belittle other clubs such as Bournemouth ultimately that belittling is born out of resentment and envy that they're where they are and we're where we are and deep down knowing that they're in their position on merit.

I think though there's a generational gap at Wolves within the supporter base, my age group (30) have been used to Wolves as perennial Premier League flirters with the odd forray but obviously there is that older group who remember those days. I'd love to see us return to those days and see Molineux redeveloped as planned and rammed every week as it genuinely depresses me seeing 10,000 or so empty seats every home game but that's going to need a strategy never before seen at Wolves and one that doesn't involve bullying minnows to make ourselves feel better! Happy new year!

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't think anyone doubts our history or that we were trail blazers in Europe with the floodlit friendlies, but our success in the 50's and to a lesser degree 70's, is no more relevant than Preston winning the double, Huddersfield winning the league 3 times in the 20's, Derby twice in the 70's, Forest the European Cup twice, Ipswich finishing in the Top 6 of the Prem a decade ago, Leeds being Champions League semi finalists at the same time etc etc.

I find the Big club argument arbitrary anyway, but agree that by most metrics we'd make a notional Top 20, but then ask a neutral 25 year old who is the bigger club, Wolves or West Brom or Southampton or Palace or Norwich? I think you'd get a different answer to the one you are expecting.

Our history is to be proud of but an irrelevance to where we are today and probably to our the future and some Wolves fans can come across as having a sense of entitlement because of it.

 

[sycophantia]

Don't think our history is an irrelevance, we are right to be proud, we just need to look back on it with affection but not harp on about it, as for whether we are a "bigger" club than some others...don't give a shit, thats the part of the point about football, a small club can be as good as some bigger clubs

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I've disagreed with you recently but I can't say a word against that level of passion and commitment, it's obvious you're Wolves through and through as is Cyberman and fair play. I'm much younger than you but as a youngster I used to love hearing the atmosphere from West Park as my dad parked up and my first AST was paid for by my paper round... It really resonates what you wrote and I don't think any club should be ashamed of their history be it ourselves, Forest or Leeds but I do think there's a fine line between being bloody proud of our history and using that history to belittle other clubs such as Bournemouth ultimately that belittling is born out of resentment and envy that they're where they are and we're where we are and deep down knowing that they're in their position on merit.

I think though there's a generational gap at Wolves within the supporter base, my age group (30) have been used to Wolves as perennial Premier League flirters with the odd forray but obviously there is that older group who remember those days. I'd love to see us return to those days and see Molineux redeveloped as planned and rammed every week as it genuinely depresses me seeing 10,000 or so empty seats every home game but that's going to need a strategy never before seen at Wolves and one that doesn't involve bullying minnows to make ourselves feel better! Happy new year!

I agree there is a fine line but in business and in life I have always looked at growth and progression as a positive. No one has a divine right to succeed or in football terms be in the premier league. As individuals I believe you must play with the hand you are given but if you play it well and work hard you will achieve the best you can do. Translate that to Wolves and given the ups and downs last season should have been the watershed. the time to put the relegation's, overpaid pre madonnas etc behind us and build on a solid foundation for the future. That ambition surely must be to be as big and as successful as possible. The only way to do that is to be in the top league where the rewards are there to help your business grow. I am not belittling Bournemouth but something there must be right to go from the 4th to the first tier with such a small fanbase and turnover in less than 10 years. OI know the owners have pumped money in but not millions and millions. the whole set up has worked.

Wolves broke the transfer record twice for sale and purchase in 1979 for Steve Daley and Andy Gray. That season Wolves finished 6th in the top league and won the league cup. Unfortunately it was all down hill for the next 20 years as the strategy then was flawed in a similar way to Leeds and Portsmouth latterly

The top League rewards have never been so great. Wolves are one of the few championship teams in the black. Say what you like we are well run. But , and this is the crux , to grow as a business needs to have a strategy that enables that growth and sometimes that means heavier investment than we have done in the last few windows. Afobe aside. A new owner may just help us to do this and achieve what I am sure we all want and that is long term premiership football within a solvent structure.

I have never lived in Wolverhampton. I have always lived at least 3 hours away. I spent my childhood competing with the Liverpool Leeds Arsenal Spurs Man U clones who followed the crowd where I followed my heart. You can change your wife but you never change your football team. It has become a mantra. I forget that many of you guys werent there when I was. A fourteen year old in my day three hours away from his team would never get to see them live. Imagine the joy however when I finally got to the ground , saw the pitch ( and its 20 metre gap down one side) just in time to see us disappear down the leagues.
Imagine my joy as a police officer for Cambridge Utd matches when I got the job of escorting the team coach into the ground when my boyhood team played them in the old div 4? Talking with the players on the coach- treasured memory. But at that time the players talked about " great history" or " back to the top" or " return to the glory days". 25 years ago the Wolves squad wanted to be in the top tier and be in the top tier with Wolves. You have all see pictures of Bully and seen him in person singing in the stands. That passion is what following a football team is about for me. That thrill when we win, that excitement when we achieve , that expectation that we are going to give a good account of ourselves and do the best we possibly can.

The issue I have now is that with the advent of the premier league you need to realise how much money is involved and required. It is a huge global business as you know. And if that now means we have to think differently and have a different strategy to succeed that includes a chinese owner, a red away kit, a sponsored stadium so long as the owner invests well in the club, the structure and its players it is something I completely support. I would love football not to have become so commercial but it is and it wont change so I have a real if you cant beat them join them attitude. Let us hope in 2016 we get a real positive year for all at Wolves and take those first steps towards long term success. It will be great for all and for Wolverhampton if we do.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Southampton at the top, palace at the bottom. The other 3 rotating in the middle

 

[loonsewolf]

Any reliable news on possible buyers? I've read some stuff about the Reuben brothers, the Chinese billionaire and according to the link below there's a Jordanian looking at two Championship clubs. Point is, does anyone have any info on what's going on or are these just rumours?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...on-Hasan-Abdullah-Ismaik-talks-two-teams.html

 

[DejaVuWolf]

Just rumours at the moment.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

As you would expect. £30-£40m deals are commercially confidential and nobody is going to spill beans to a supposed ITK. The best you will get is "X was spotted at Compton" or "Y was in the director's box for a game".

 

[Kenny]

Go back to when Souness opened his gob after signing the non disclosure stuff............soon ended that matter when the Daily Mirror published it.

 

[Johnny75]

As you would expect. £30-£40m deals are commercially confidential and nobody is going to spill beans to a supposed ITK. The best you will get is "X was spotted at Compton" or "Y was in the director's box for a game".

You've been involved with takeovers/ mergers professionally haven't you Paddy?

How would you say Wolves have been valued and do you think this was the plan all along (as in years/ time) as the accounts have shown a profit and liabilities are as low as they could be for a football club?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Done some pretty big ones in my previous career (£300-£400 million several times).

Any sales transaction is effectively a contract. Morgan stating that Wolves are for sale at a preferred price (which he and his people will have determined dependent upon what is actually for sale) is an INVITATION TO TREAT. Only when a buyer comes in and says, after due diligence to at least a first blush level, I would like to pay £xm is an OFFER made. And then only when Morgan says, "yes, that is a fair price, let's proceed" is that ACCEPTANCE. Then full due diligence goes ahead, finances are put in place etc etc etc. Not dissimilar to exchange of contracts in a house sale. At that point you still do not have CONSIDERATION, although there is a clear CONDITIONAL INTENTION TO ENTER INTO CONTRACTUAL RELATIONS. Only when finances move and final contracts are completed do you reach COMPLETION because without CONSIDERATION (Money from one side, keys to the club from the other) there is no legally binding contract.

So the value is basically whatever a buyer offers that Morgan considers acceptable. As the accounts are in the public domain that information is available to any potential buyer in formulating their offer.

 

[Penk Wolf]

You've been involved with takeovers/ mergers professionally haven't you Paddy?

How would you say Wolves have been valued and do you think this was the plan all along (as in years/ time) as the accounts have shown a profit and liabilities are as low as they could be for a football club?

For a normal business, profit multiples of 3 and a strong business with big potential, you'll be able to negotiate up to 6 at a stretch. Last accounts were £8.5m profit, so somewhere between £25.5 to £51m, however a football club isn't a normal business.

 

[Johnny75]

Cheers Penk, that's what I was after. It will be interesting to see what multiple they go for.

Apologies Paddy, it was Penk's explanation I was after not the nuts and bolts of how you sell the club.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I'm a lawyer not an accountant. Valuations aren't my bag.

Saying that, my point still exists in that Wolves are worth whatever a buyer offers that Morgan accepts. As does Penk's point, that a football club is a very different asset to sell than another business.

 

[Papper]

Strangely enough we have the same potential and therefore value as any other club that has gates that average 18K on normal days, up to 28K on promotion chasing, inside the top six type days and up to 33K on celebration days. Potentially we are no different to debt ridden Bolton. Thankfully Moxey hasn't been allowed to spend money we haven't got. I guess the value is what gets agreed between the two parties but I suspect he'll want his £30M back.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I'm a lawyer not an accountant. Valuations aren't my bag.

Saying that, my point still exists in that Wolves are worth whatever a buyer offers that Morgan accepts. As does Penk's point, that a football club is a very different asset to sell than another business.

Yes, agreed.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Strangely enough we have the same potential and therefore value as any other club that has gates that average 18K on normal days, up to 28K on promotion chasing, inside the top six type days and up to 33K on celebration days. Potentially we are no different to debt ridden Bolton. Thankfully Moxey hasn't been allowed to spend money we haven't got. I guess the value is what gets agreed between the two parties but I suspect he'll want his £30M back.

We are slightly different in valuation to Bolton today. For a start, they have 0% chance of being in the top flight next season. We have a minute chance still that we could be. They have a better than 50% chance of being in league one next season with appropriate cut in income, we have a maybe 1% chance of going down.

Plus we own the stands, and have a massively long lease on the ground on which they are built (offset by a covenant that the land must be used for sporting activity meaning that you can't do what the Porno twins are doing with Upton Park, so there is no re-use value). Plus we 100% own Compton which is also a valuable property asset.

With the value of the squad, it is harder to say because you depreciate player value across the length of their contract.

 

[Johnny75]

Yes, agreed.

That's why I asked really.

I understand how I've valued (and the accountants have valued) my business but this is a football club and how they're valued must follow those rules roughly. But most sales are done on buying going concerns, potential market share, current market share and the mitigating factor of potential growth. Football cannot be measured like this can it?

I mean it has to have a business plan but it seems mad to commit money to a football club when the management team and staff are so important and the product the same as every other competitor in the market place (the variability of that product is something else admittedly).

I can't imagine any buyer just rocking up and saying Wolves are only worth x without some reasoning behind it. People saying Morgan will want his money back are silly as that's not how sales work and have no reasoning behind it.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Saying that, my point still exists in that Wolves are worth whatever a buyer offers that Morgan accepts. As does Penk's point, that a football club is a very different asset to sell than another business.

This is why the "pump £25m a season in while in the Championship and the club increases four times in value once you get promoted" argument is an absolute fallacy. It isn't, it's worth what someone else will pay for it, which might be an increase of 0% on what you paid. So unless you fancy creaming off TV revenue for yourself (which would go down well) then you're throwing that money away, for potentially no gain as only three teams can go up. There are going to be at least two teams this season who have spent big - be it on retaining expensive players, or big transfer spending, or a combination of the two - and will still be in this division next year. It's no strategy at all, if some billionaire wants to waste his own money then fine, but it isn't a coherent plan.