Live Match Discussion 2016/17

[MARKakaJIM]

He is arrogant, always has been, there's always been a sense that he tries to show how clever he is rather than just picking the simplest, most obvious solution which will probably produce results, there's also the thing where he doesn't practice defending set pieces and all his teams are insanely vulnerable to them. Imagine Real knocking in corners to Ramos against this lot, he'd be on for a hat trick all the time.

He'll be ok for now but they haven't won anything this year, not even that close really and for all that the board pursued him and for all his reputation, he needs to change that next year. All of the full backs and keepers should be gone as well as Yaya, Navas, Otamendi, Fernando, Mangala, Bony, Delph etc.

It'll be interesting to see how things play out for him, and how long he eventually stays at City for.

I've often considered his reputation to be a bit of a bluff, I mean he's only ever worked with insanely talented players at clubs where they have extremely few rivals that can really lay a glove on them, in that situation how difficult really can it be to get those teams playing pretty football? I think as well when you look in isolation there isn't that much special going on in his style of football, there's lots and lots of very simple passes but it's the mental strength and focus that usually sets them apart from their opponents, I think at times he wastes big chunks of his players' games by restricting them to his premeditated gameplan. Personally I don't think de Bruyne looks half as threatening now as he did in those couple of seasons at Wolfsburg, they played at a much higher tempo and he had so much room to exploit, at City everything is much slower and so teams get men in behind and he's restricted to flashing balls across the box more often than anything else. I was similarly unimpressed with Lewandowski under him, despite the phenomenal scoring rate I think his overall game was a lot weaker, or certainly a lot quieter, than it had been at Dortmund, he barely got involved in any build up under Pep just stood in the box waiting for stuff to finish.

I think the competitiveness, perhaps the combatitiveness and aggression, of the Premier League has caught him out a bit, whenever I've watched weaker La Liga teams they still tend to try and play football, going up against the big guns knowing they'll get blown away but still setting up their normal way to end up as cannon fodder. You're not going to get a free ride like that from many teams over here, if they think they're going to get a pasting they'll happily throw out some dirtbag way of trying to screw the big boys over or at least limit the damage, no different to Mourinho has done tonight just to spoil to occassion for everyone. Pep's methods don't seem to allow for that approach from opponents, for me he doesn't do enough to force the issue against teams that are content to sit in and frustrate, like he expects everyone to have some naive thinking that they could win everything game by going out and trying to play the best football they can, at which point he can capitalise and get the win himself.

I can't see him being in management all that long personally, he's already achieved pretty much everything you could ever want to, even going to Bayern seemed like something he didn't really need to do so I wouldn't be surprised if he just walked away from it all together after City. There's a lot of 'flavour of the month' fanboying around things in football and I think peak of that for Pep's football has already passed with the Tiki-Taka wankathon a few years back, now everyone seems to have jumped on the Conte 343 thing and ran with that as the best thing since sliced bread. I wonder who or what will end as the next amazing, all conquering football force, probably for 12 months at best.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Good post Mark, I agree with pretty much all that.

I'm looking forward to seeing Chelsea in the CL next year. Costa will need replacing of course and they need better wing backs, but it's not like they don't have the finance to do it.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

It'll be interesting to see where Conte goes from here, lots of people have made a big thing of him with the back three but he only went for it at Chelsea when the back four looked a mess, didn't he use a back four most of the time with Italy too? Sure I can remember them having some weird system with De Rossi dropping deep in possession and fullbacks pushing up that made it a sort of quasi-three at the back in possession but four when they lost it. I think he's used it this season to make the best of what he has rather than turning up with that in mind from day one, certainly think that's the case with the front three as I've no recollection of him using that sort of setup previously. He might find it difficult to move away from something that's bought him such instant success but perhaps if a few players move on he'll find it easier to shift back to another system or perhaps transfer availability will influence him, might be easier to get targets to improve one system than another.

I do like Conte, I think he's got a good balance between character, pragamatism and attractive football. He seems tactically very astute but still able to maintain attacking output from his teams unlike 'master tactician' Mourinho who just shuts games down completely when he pulls something from his playbook, he also seems to have a decent handle on his players as people, even when Costa apparently went mental in January he seems very calm about the situation in the press and within weeks Costa was back in the team as normal. He could turn out to be a very shrewd appointment for Chelsea over the next few years, doesn't have the baggage or expectation of a Mourinho or Guardiola but more than holding his own with those pair at the moment, could perhaps even be the one who finally uses a few of their countless youth players given that he's introduced a few sparingly this season and seemed happy to go with some left field choices for Juventus and Italy too.

 

[YoungWolf]

It'll be interesting to see how things play out for him, and how long he eventually stays at City for.

I've often considered his reputation to be a bit of a bluff, I mean he's only ever worked with insanely talented players at clubs where they have extremely few rivals that can really lay a glove on them, in that situation how difficult really can it be to get those teams playing pretty football? I think as well when you look in isolation there isn't that much special going on in his style of football, there's lots and lots of very simple passes but it's the mental strength and focus that usually sets them apart from their opponents, I think at times he wastes big chunks of his players' games by restricting them to his premeditated gameplan. Personally I don't think de Bruyne looks half as threatening now as he did in those couple of seasons at Wolfsburg, they played at a much higher tempo and he had so much room to exploit, at City everything is much slower and so teams get men in behind and he's restricted to flashing balls across the box more often than anything else. I was similarly unimpressed with Lewandowski under him, despite the phenomenal scoring rate I think his overall game was a lot weaker, or certainly a lot quieter, than it had been at Dortmund, he barely got involved in any build up under Pep just stood in the box waiting for stuff to finish.

I think the competitiveness, perhaps the combatitiveness and aggression, of the Premier League has caught him out a bit, whenever I've watched weaker La Liga teams they still tend to try and play football, going up against the big guns knowing they'll get blown away but still setting up their normal way to end up as cannon fodder. You're not going to get a free ride like that from many teams over here, if they think they're going to get a pasting they'll happily throw out some dirtbag way of trying to screw the big boys over or at least limit the damage, no different to Mourinho has done tonight just to spoil to occassion for everyone. Pep's methods don't seem to allow for that approach from opponents, for me he doesn't do enough to force the issue against teams that are content to sit in and frustrate, like he expects everyone to have some naive thinking that they could win everything game by going out and trying to play the best football they can, at which point he can capitalise and get the win himself.

I can't see him being in management all that long personally, he's already achieved pretty much everything you could ever want to, even going to Bayern seemed like something he didn't really need to do so I wouldn't be surprised if he just walked away from it all together after City. There's a lot of 'flavour of the month' fanboying around things in football and I think peak of that for Pep's football has already passed with the Tiki-Taka wankathon a few years back, now everyone seems to have jumped on the Conte 343 thing and ran with that as the best thing since sliced bread. I wonder who or what will end as the next amazing, all conquering football force, probably for 12 months at best.

I don't think it will surprise people who know me that I disagree with a fair bit of what you say, as the Pep fan-girl that I am.

Firstly, when asked about him only being able to get the success he has had with the quality of the players, he has always agreed and said of course it is about the players (which goes against the idea that he is arrogant, which I think is a bit of a myth). However, I don't think he does himself justice there at all when he says that. That Barcelona side are on of the best teams ever (IMO) and they didn't just sort themselves out? The coach is always a central figure, good or bad and the football they played whilst winning everything was incredible. He didn't just arrive and it was on a plate either, really, as when Riijkard left they weren't at their peak at all and he had a few things to sort out. He did inherit a fantastic Bayern team but it was an odd situation to come into when you think about it, as they had just won the lot the season before. I personally thought his Bayern team were fantastic to watch. The second leg against Atletico last season is almost as good as a performance I had seen from team in years yet they quite cruelly lost. The impact without him, even under an amazing manager like Ancelotti, has been quite clear I think though from what I have seen of them this season and by their results overall.

Secondly, his style is about juego de posicion (positional play) rather than what people like to call 'tiki-taka' which is he on record for saying he hates. It's all about creating superiority in numbers and positionally to move the opposition, from my basic understanding. I think the signs are quite clear with what he wants from City, and they are not far off in my opinion. I think he is very stubborn in his style, I'd agree with that, but it's something I admire really. I don't see why he is boring when the other teams just camp their players in the penalty area. Mourinho will be hailed for his tactical genius but Guardiola, who's side dominated most of the play and where the ones probing and trying to break them down are the boring ones? He become more flexible with his Bayern side in fact, where they began to utilise someone like Boateng's quality of long passing and I'm sure he will find that with City, depending on the strengths of his side. Last season he would end up with four, or five attackers which is another thing I'm sure he will look to create at City. I guess that is why I admire it. At the moment, maybe it doesn't get the full results but if he doesn't stick to his guns it won't help them as much in the long term, as he tries to fully develop the approach he wants. I think he will be at City longer than he was at Barca/Bayern for this reason. He's seen how much of a job it needs, which is funny because if he 'succeeds' ie. wins lots of trophies people will say he inherited a great squad, was on a plate for him when City's squad has needed major surgery for a couple of years now.

I would advise anyone, doesn't have to be a massive fan of the man, to read Marti Perarnau's books. He has basically just followed him around for three years at Bayern. You get quite an interesting insight into the man himself and the different things he has done. For example, marking man to man against Barcelona in his second season at Bayern, where they were undone by that front three. A lot thought he was being arrogant but I think he was just doing what he thought was the best idea for his team to win. Interestingly, a team did that recently and everyone praised them to the hilt for it. Another good example is him happily admitting he fucked up against Real Madrid when Bayern got spanked by them.

 

[YoungWolf]

conte used a back three mainly at Juve I believe, but not soley used that formation. The top 'super-coaches' these days are flexible. The likes of Conte, Pep and Poch are all able to move between systems seeminly unflustered.. whereas Mourinho and Wenger have finally latched on and made an effort to look flexible in my opinion.

What I like most about Conte is how simple he keeps it, it's very impressive. Though they have benefitted from no europe, I think he will do really well again next year.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I don't think it will surprise people who know me that I disagree with a fair bit of what you say, as the Pep fan-girl that I am.

Firstly, when asked about him only being able to get the success he has had with the quality of the players, he has always agreed and said of course it is about the players (which goes against the idea that he is arrogant, which I think is a bit of a myth). However, I don't think he does himself justice there at all when he says that. That Barcelona side are on of the best teams ever (IMO) and they didn't just sort themselves out? The coach is always a central figure, good or bad and the football they played whilst winning everything was incredible. He didn't just arrive and it was on a plate either, really, as when Riijkard left they weren't at their peak at all and he had a few things to sort out. He did inherit a fantastic Bayern team but it was an odd situation to come into when you think about it, as they had just won the lot the season before. I personally thought his Bayern team were fantastic to watch. The second leg against Atletico last season is almost as good as a performance I had seen from team in years yet they quite cruelly lost. The impact without him, even under an amazing manager like Ancelotti, has been quite clear I think though from what I have seen of them this season and by their results overall.

Secondly, his style is about juego de posicion (positional play) rather than what people like to call 'tiki-taka' which is he on record for saying he hates. It's all about creating superiority in numbers and positionally to move the opposition, from my basic understanding. I think the signs are quite clear with what he wants from City, and they are not far off in my opinion. I think he is very stubborn in his style, I'd agree with that, but it's something I admire really. I don't see why he is boring when the other teams just camp their players in the penalty area. Mourinho will be hailed for his tactical genius but Guardiola, who's side dominated most of the play and where the ones probing and trying to break them down are the boring ones? He become more flexible with his Bayern side in fact, where they began to utilise someone like Boateng's quality of long passing and I'm sure he will find that with City, depending on the strengths of his side. Last season he would end up with four, or five attackers which is another thing I'm sure he will look to create at City. I guess that is why I admire it. At the moment, maybe it doesn't get the full results but if he doesn't stick to his guns it won't help them as much in the long term, as he tries to fully develop the approach he wants. I think he will be at City longer than he was at Barca/Bayern for this reason. He's seen how much of a job it needs, which is funny because if he 'succeeds' ie. wins lots of trophies people will say he inherited a great squad, was on a plate for him when City's squad has needed major surgery for a couple of years now.

I would advise anyone, doesn't have to be a massive fan of the man, to read Marti Perarnau's books. He has basically just followed him around for three years at Bayern. You get quite an interesting insight into the man himself and the different things he has done. For example, marking man to man against Barcelona in his second season at Bayern, where they were undone by that front three. A lot thought he was being arrogant but I think he was just doing what he thought was the best idea for his team to win. Interestingly, a team did that recently and everyone praised them to the hilt for it. Another good example is him happily admitting he fucked up against Real Madrid when Bayern got spanked by them.

He's certainly played a significant part in his teams' successes but I just don't think he's done quite the incredible job that many often do, he's organised very talented players and has them very focused on what they're doing but personally I don't think he really has people particularly punching above their weight or even progressing that much individually for the most part. He's very good at setting teams up to make the most of very specific things they have going for them, I find his teams often play very safe for large periods of the game, eliminating pretty much all risk from their game, and thus mistakes, before small margins make the difference. Too often watching his Barca team they just seemed to be playing within themselves, this was potentially the most talented team of my lifetime and they'd be walking around playing 5-10 passes whilst the opponent stood miles off them shrugging their shoulders, it was just as attritional as Mourinho's defensive stuff but they just happened to have the ball instead. Then eventually you'd just get Messi deciding to ramp it up and beat 2-3 players to get them ahead and I'd be left wondering why he'd waited 70 odd minutes before taking advantage of his obvious gulf in class.

For games like tonight's I certainly wouldn't be siding with Mourinho over Guardiola, I think they were both just about as bad as each other, they had one thing in mind and did nothing to alter that plan throughout the game. In Mourinho's case he didn't really need to as a point there was enough to keep people happy whereas as Guardiola should've had more ambition, they didn't raise the tempo, they didn't try to be more direct, they didn't really try anything different all game. You say they were probing and trying to break United down but I think that's generous, they might have had all of the ball but I don't think they really showed a great deal more ambition than United to win the game, very few risks were taken to create anything, they just didn't force the issue anywhere near enough.

For someone who seems to place a lot of emphasis on footballing intelligence it does surprise that his players seem to have such little scope for thinking on their feet in his system, it seems doing things his way is more important than getting the result at times, like it's not worth getting the better of his opponent unless he's done it exactly how he wanted to. I remember seeing Henry talking about him on TV before he came to City and he told a story about when he played under him at Barca, he was playing wide left and they were struggling to make any headway with Henry saying he'd barely been involved, so he took it upon himself to drift more centrally to get involved, he ended up scoring as a result of that to put Barca ahead and got bollocked by Guardiola from disobeying his instructions to stay wide even though it had improved their effectiveness!

It's that sort of thing that bothers me most with him I think, his tactical style seems very oppressive, I think attacking players can be stifled at times being restricted by his positional methods. Thinking back to de Bruyne at Wolfsburg again he used to play behind Dost and just wander around wherever he wanted, he doesn't have anything like that freedom at City now and I think his game suffers for it. Even though he has some blatantly obvious flaws, especially in defence, it's why I love watch Klopp's teams, his basis seems to be turning a game into chaos and relying on his players' understanding with one another to excel in the chaos whilst the other teams flounder, frantic tempo and direct attacking giving teams no time to settle. I love the excitement of that kind of game, seeing what players can come up with between themselves on the fly to get one over on their rivals, it appeals to me so much more than some drawn out tactical chess game.

conte used a back three mainly at Juve I believe, but not soley used that formation. The top 'super-coaches' these days are flexible. The likes of Conte, Pep and Poch are all able to move between systems seeminly unflustered.. whereas Mourinho and Wenger have finally latched on and made an effort to look flexible in my opinion.

What I like most about Conte is how simple he keeps it, it's very impressive. Though they have benefitted from no europe, I think he will do really well again next year.

He definitely went back three at Juventus, he had three ridiculously good centre halves and it gave him an extra player in midfield which meant old man Pirlo could sit there spraying things around without anyone really being able to take advantage of him not really being able to run anymore. I don't think he carried that shape across to Italy though, different set of players so went with what suited them best rather than sticking to what he'd used before, that's the bit that's irking me with a lot of pundits claiming he's a dyed in the wool back three man and it was inevitably going to go that way at Chelsea, I think it's just more pragmatism from Conte.

Whilst he always seems to provide a very solid tactical base for his sides, certainly without the ball, I do think he allows far more freedom for individuals when his team has the ball, as seen by the way he lets Hazard and Pedro float around in that space betwee midfield and attack majority of the time. He provides the base and lets the players make the own decisions from their, whereas Pep seems to exert far more control over what players do in every aspect from what I've seen.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

There's a subtle difference between Conte's Juve and Conte's Chelsea, I thought if he was going to go with a back three this season it'd be with two strikers as he did in Italy and he'd go Costa and Batshuayi as a pair of battering rams and Hazard floating in behind (I also thought he'd use it as a device to retain JT). Not gone that way at all though. And to make players out of Victor fucking Moses and Marcos Alonso who turns slower than milk...well fair play.

KdB looked way better last season to me, he's deep in odd areas this year, it didn't apply tonight but all too often it seems he's playing second fiddle to Silva who was absolutely awesome in the past but his best days are definitely behind him. For whatever reason City can't let go of that 2010-2014 core, they've pretty much all had it bar Aguero and even he will probably end up giving way to Gabby J next season, unless they can accommodate them both.

Pep used to do weird shit at Bayern, Alaba in a different position every game, Lahm in midfield like Löw used to do for no reason (why are you moving the best RB in the world), Xabi Alonso as a third centre half, doesn't matter a lot of the time though as teams really do roll over for Bayern. Inferiority complex, similar to Fergie's United 20 years ago.

Louie, I'd be interested in how you feel about his approach to set pieces. I'm no head it and kick it dinosaur but I do recognise that you're going to have to defend anywhere between 10-30 of these situations a game and he does NO work on them! And it shows.

 

[YoungWolf]

He's certainly played a significant part in his teams' successes but I just don't think he's done quite the incredible job that many often do, he's organised very talented players and has them very focused on what they're doing but personally I don't think he really has people particularly punching above their weight or even progressing that much individually for the most part. He's very good at setting teams up to make the most of very specific things they have going for them, I find his teams often play very safe for large periods of the game, eliminating pretty much all risk from their game, and thus mistakes, before small margins make the difference. Too often watching his Barca team they just seemed to be playing within themselves, this was potentially the most talented team of my lifetime and they'd be walking around playing 5-10 passes whilst the opponent stood miles off them shrugging their shoulders, it was just as attritional as Mourinho's defensive stuff but they just happened to have the ball instead. Then eventually you'd just get Messi deciding to ramp it up and beat 2-3 players to get them ahead and I'd be left wondering why he'd waited 70 odd minutes before taking advantage of his obvious gulf in class.

For games like tonight's I certainly wouldn't be siding with Mourinho over Guardiola, I think they were both just about as bad as each other, they had one thing in mind and did nothing to alter that plan throughout the game. In Mourinho's case he didn't really need to as a point there was enough to keep people happy whereas as Guardiola should've had more ambition, they didn't raise the tempo, they didn't try to be more direct, they didn't really try anything different all game. You say they were probing and trying to break United down but I think that's generous, they might have had all of the ball but I don't think they really showed a great deal more ambition than United to win the game, very few risks were taken to create anything, they just didn't force the issue anywhere near enough.

For someone who seems to place a lot of emphasis on footballing intelligence it does surprise that his players seem to have such little scope for thinking on their feet in his system, it seems doing things his way is more important than getting the result at times, like it's not worth getting the better of his opponent unless he's done it exactly how he wanted to. I remember seeing Henry talking about him on TV before he came to City and he told a story about when he played under him at Barca, he was playing wide left and they were struggling to make any headway with Henry saying he'd barely been involved, so he took it upon himself to drift more centrally to get involved, he ended up scoring as a result of that to put Barca ahead and got bollocked by Guardiola from disobeying his instructions to stay wide even though it had improved their effectiveness!

It's that sort of thing that bothers me most with him I think, his tactical style seems very oppressive, I think attacking players can be stifled at times being restricted by his positional methods. Thinking back to de Bruyne at Wolfsburg again he used to play behind Dost and just wander around wherever he wanted, he doesn't have anything like that freedom at City now and I think his game suffers for it. Even though he has some blatantly obvious flaws, especially in defence, it's why I love watch Klopp's teams, his basis seems to be turning a game into chaos and relying on his players' understanding with one another to excel in the chaos whilst the other teams flounder, frantic tempo and direct attacking giving teams no time to settle. I love the excitement of that kind of game, seeing what players can come up with between themselves on the fly to get one over on their rivals, it appeals to me so much more than some drawn out tactical chess game.



He definitely went back three at Juventus, he had three ridiculously good centre halves and it gave him an extra player in midfield which meant old man Pirlo could sit there spraying things around without anyone really being able to take advantage of him not really being able to run anymore. I don't think he carried that shape across to Italy though, different set of players so went with what suited them best rather than sticking to what he'd used before, that's the bit that's irking me with a lot of pundits claiming he's a dyed in the wool back three man and it was inevitably going to go that way at Chelsea, I think it's just more pragmatism from Conte.

Whilst he always seems to provide a very solid tactical base for his sides, certainly without the ball, I do think he allows far more freedom for individuals when his team has the ball, as seen by the way he lets Hazard and Pedro float around in that space betwee midfield and attack majority of the time. He provides the base and lets the players make the own decisions from their, whereas Pep seems to exert far more control over what players do in every aspect from what I've seen.

I thought they created enough chances to win if I'm honest and they really should have. I'm not sure I agree that he is 'safe', definitely pragmatic but how many times this season have City taken the lead and battered teams only to leave themselves too open and throw the game away? Quite a few I think. They will become better at seeing games out through their possession I imagine though next season. Both them and Mourinho, in such contrasting styles, are quite close in fact to having top sides. Both just don't seem to take chances at the right time whereas Chelsea, who I don't think have actually played very well for a while, just keep on scoring at the crucial moments. The Spurs game was ridiculous. I didn't think Chelsea really took part, didn't defend well, or have a real attacking plan as I thought they might on the counter attack, yet scored from the second phase of a set piece at a time when they were getting dominated most. They might not have that fortune next season and then suddenly Conte will be criticised, probably unfairly!

I remember the exact video you are talking about with Henry's analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXQh74WCoE

His approach is very structured but in the final third they should have the freedom. I think watching his Barca and Bayern sides at their peak they certainly had this. I don't think this changes at City, as he is very set on the principles of positional play but we just aren't seeing the final product yet.

While I think Lewandowski was an interesting example (I don't think we can say just yet with De Bruyne, who clearly enjoys playing for him though) as I agree initially at Bayern he wasn't having the same impact as at Dortmund - different styles and then he did explode goals wise, I wouldn't say he oppresses players. Sterling has come on hugely this season in my opinion. He's had a dip recently, hence why he's not played as much, but he has looked so much better this season and will only continue to improve. Messi exploded, and although he was probably always going to be this good you can't deny Guardiola the part he played in that. He has lifted plenty of players to new heights, young and old. I suppose it depends what you want. David Villa ended up playing left of the front three for him (was unlucky with injury mind) but I doubt he ever moaned about it, and benefitted himself from it, still scoring lots of goals. He may have been stood out on the wing, as part of the attacking plan but in the final third was when he could come to life, as Henry explains. The thing about his style is it is very meticulously planned, but yet there are still so many ways in which City will build up the play. Then they will burst into life, or try to. I thought they just looked a little bit tired today, leggy if anything and minus Silva, yet they still had the chances to win the game. I thoroughly enjoy watching them as I find it really interesting the way players will position themselves in certain spaces in attack, for example between a full back and a centre midfielder, so often where they can turn and play forwards.



On Conte, I do wonder if they will stick with three at the back next season, particularly in europe, Is Cahill really going to be up to scratch if they want to go far in it? Likewise with Azpilicueta, he has been exposed a couple of times. I can see him ditching Moses too, at which point he might turn back to a back four and have Azpilicueta as his right back. The system they have has definitely allowed a front three (whether with two wide players and a forward or attacking midfield and two strikers) the freedom that you talk about I agree. I find both ends of that freedom spectrum enjoyable to watch for different reasons.

 

[YoungWolf]

There's a subtle difference between Conte's Juve and Conte's Chelsea, I thought if he was going to go with a back three this season it'd be with two strikers as he did in Italy and he'd go Costa and Batshuayi as a pair of battering rams and Hazard floating in behind (I also thought he'd use it as a device to retain JT). Not gone that way at all though. And to make players out of Victor fucking Moses and Marcos Alonso who turns slower than milk...well fair play.

KdB looked way better last season to me, he's deep in odd areas this year, it didn't apply tonight but all too often it seems he's playing second fiddle to Silva who was absolutely awesome in the past but his best days are definitely behind him. For whatever reason City can't let go of that 2010-2014 core, they've pretty much all had it bar Aguero and even he will probably end up giving way to Gabby J next season, unless they can accommodate them both.

Pep used to do weird shit at Bayern, Alaba in a different position every game, Lahm in midfield like Löw used to do for no reason (why are you moving the best RB in the world), Xabi Alonso as a third centre half, doesn't matter a lot of the time though as teams really do roll over for Bayern. Inferiority complex, similar to Fergie's United 20 years ago.

Louie, I'd be interested in how you feel about his approach to set pieces. I'm no head it and kick it dinosaur but I do recognise that you're going to have to defend anywhere between 10-30 of these situations a game and he does NO work on them! And it shows.

Alaba is a player who can play in almost any position, incredible footballer, especially under Guardiola, who likes to change systems during a game in accordance to how the game is going. He was perfect for him. In fact when he played him centre back those times (like with Kimmich) it turned out to be of benefit as due to injuries he had to play him there in very important games. I don't see why Lahm as centre midfielder is that mental, either, another player with so much game intelligence. He ended up using him as a full back coming inside in possession, which worked excellently as well. Alonso one was odd though I agree. I guess what is odd to me or you, isn't to him though? I don't think that is arrogance, just seeing the game in a very different way. He wanted to play Ribery up front (a la Messi) yet quickly realised that just simply wasn't going to happen and kept him where he was strongest, on the left.

Does he do no work on set pieces? Genuine question, as from my reading on him and understanding I wouldn't think that to be true at all. In fact, with the way they hold their line it seems pretty planned to me. They quite clearly work on attacking set pieces as they have a different move/plan almost every time they have one.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

He said it after the Bayern vs Real demolition. Set pieces aren't important to him, they don't work on them. Not seen much at City that says to me that he's changed his mind, his choice of keeper(s) for one.

To me it seems like arrogance, to you it seems like experimentation but I think the point is that at Bayern (in particular) he had the flexibility to do that, they're going to win anyway. Play Navas at RB for example in a PL game, doesn't matter if it's against Liverpool, Southampton or Swansea, it could very easily come undone and any dropped points are a real problem. But he won't stop doing it, like he doesn't realise that sometimes you just need to be pragmatic and get the result.

You simply can't play well *all* the time. Not possible. So you have to find a way of winning when you don't.

Like I say I don't think I'm some kind of 80s/90s dinosaur, but some of what he does perplexes me. Whereas I can see logic in what Conte, Simeone, Tuchel, Klopp do.

 

[YoungWolf]

I don't think he doesn't practice them - otherwise they wouldn't hold such a line when defending them. He favours a zonal system (which can be debated of course and often is) as far as I can see.

He wasn't playing Alaba in different positions to prove he could play him anywhere, IMO. He was doing it to firstly, develop the player themselves, and also improve his team and be more flexible. Equally, I would think he agrees with you that he can't do the same thing in England (just yet, anyway) as he hasn't really done it to such an extent. The only player I really feel he has moved around a lot, maybe too much, has been Fernandinho and De Bruyne. De Bruyne will benefit longer term. With Navas, and this is a player I think is really shit by the way, I think he just wants to try different options at this point. Both Zabaleta and Sagna are pretty shot I would say though. I would argue with Navas I don't see the point as he is going to buy a new full back but in this time between then he probably saw Navas as an option who would give him more going forward seeing as they have played with two holding players recently. That is also what he doesn't like to do at all, but has obviously seen the need to again in England. I don't think he thinks they can play well all the time but he can certainly aspire too!

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I thought they created enough chances to win if I'm honest and they really should have. I'm not sure I agree that he is 'safe', definitely pragmatic but how many times this season have City taken the lead and battered teams only to leave themselves too open and throw the game away? Quite a few I think. They will become better at seeing games out through their possession I imagine though next season. Both them and Mourinho, in such contrasting styles, are quite close in fact to having top sides. Both just don't seem to take chances at the right time whereas Chelsea, who I don't think have actually played very well for a while, just keep on scoring at the crucial moments. The Spurs game was ridiculous. I didn't think Chelsea really took part, didn't defend well, or have a real attacking plan as I thought they might on the counter attack, yet scored from the second phase of a set piece at a time when they were getting dominated most. They might not have that fortune next season and then suddenly Conte will be criticised, probably unfairly!

I remember the exact video you are talking about with Henry's analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXQh74WCoE

His approach is very structured but in the final third they should have the freedom. I think watching his Barca and Bayern sides at their peak they certainly had this. I don't think this changes at City, as he is very set on the principles of positional play but we just aren't seeing the final product yet.

While I think Lewandowski was an interesting example (I don't think we can say just yet with De Bruyne, who clearly enjoys playing for him though) as I agree initially at Bayern he wasn't having the same impact as at Dortmund - different styles and then he did explode goals wise, I wouldn't say he oppresses players. Sterling has come on hugely this season in my opinion. He's had a dip recently, hence why he's not played as much, but he has looked so much better this season and will only continue to improve. Messi exploded, and although he was probably always going to be this good you can't deny Guardiola the part he played in that. He has lifted plenty of players to new heights, young and old. I suppose it depends what you want. David Villa ended up playing left of the front three for him (was unlucky with injury mind) but I doubt he ever moaned about it, and benefitted himself from it, still scoring lots of goals. He may have been stood out on the wing, as part of the attacking plan but in the final third was when he could come to life, as Henry explains. The thing about his style is it is very meticulously planned, but yet there are still so many ways in which City will build up the play. Then they will burst into life, or try to. I thought they just looked a little bit tired today, leggy if anything and minus Silva, yet they still had the chances to win the game. I thoroughly enjoy watching them as I find it really interesting the way players will position themselves in certain spaces in attack, for example between a full back and a centre midfielder, so often where they can turn and play forwards.



On Conte, I do wonder if they will stick with three at the back next season, particularly in europe, Is Cahill really going to be up to scratch if they want to go far in it? Likewise with Azpilicueta, he has been exposed a couple of times. I can see him ditching Moses too, at which point he might turn back to a back four and have Azpilicueta as his right back. The system they have has definitely allowed a front three (whether with two wide players and a forward or attacking midfield and two strikers) the freedom that you talk about I agree. I find both ends of that freedom spectrum enjoyable to watch for different reasons.

They did create some decent chances but given how much of the ball they had did they really do enough with it considering United no threat in return? That's where my thoughts of them playing safe come from, I'm not expecting them to just throw everyone forward relentlessly and leave themselves exposed like Rodgers did with Liverpool at Palace a few years back but too many players are far too happy just keeping the ball in safe areas and causing no problems. Pretty much the entire second half they could have the ball at will 40 yards or so from United's goal but there was no attempt to get anyone in behind, no incisive movement from the forward players, the wide players just stayed out on the touchline, left Aguero central and the three lads in the middle cycled it round endlessly going nowhere. Where was the ambition? I know he has a massive focus on possession and the control that brings but if you're overly occupied with keeping the ball then at times you're going to deter players from playing a riskier pass that could reap rewards, United barely showed any threat in the second half as wide players got deeper and deeper so why not take more of a gamble with some passes knowing that you'd likely recover loose balls from clearances anyway?

I found it interesting on Carragher's little bit of analysis last night when he was showing how United shut down City's wide players by sticking three men on them whenever possible, in the few clips he showed there was never another City player making a run nearby to try and free up some space, usually you'd think a fullback would bomb past on the overlap to try and draw one of the defenders with him or one of the central midfielders made a run inside to take advantage of the space where his opposite number had gone to cover the wide area. Neither of those happened though, the City wide player either dallied and lost the ball or just played a safe pass back to his fullback/midfielder in a nothing area, didn't even try to make a dart in behind to turn it into a 1-2 or anything, again it was all very 'safe'. I do find it odd that a supposedly very flexible coach apparently doesn't see these issues and adapt his game plan to suit, there were things in last night's game that were little different from the same managers battling it out with Inter and Barca seven years ago, Mourinho closed that game down then, last night even with a completely different squad and all that extra experience Pep still didn't look like having any attempt, let alone answer, to solving the same problems.

 

[jd1981]

Rangers are just an appalling side.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Fuck off Huddersfield you pricks. Hope you lose 10-0 in playoffs

 

[jd1981]

Despise Huddersfield now rest 10 players and lose to 10 man blues and make Harry look like the hero again.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I can see Forest putting a VERY serious complaint about that line-up as it stands a chance of relegating them

 

[YoungWolf]

Hull rescued by the keeper!

 

[Tredman]

Orient fans invaded the pitch at 85 mins in protest at the owners - still on the pitch now. Colchester, away fans, supporting them too.

 

[Alan]

Orient fans invaded the pitch at 85 mins in protest at the owners - still on the pitch now. Colchester, away fans, supporting them too.

Can they be docked points from next season over that?

 

[Johnny75]

Can they be docked points from next season over that?

I don't think they'll care as they'll soon be out of business.