Giro d'Italia / Tour de France

[Pompey Wolf]

Just checking in, had a great day on the Col du Manse today, hope you all enjoyed the racing as much as we did...Tommy V was a star trying to hold on to Costa!

Rode a stunning 70 mile loop over the Col d'Izoard yesterday, Telegraphe and Galibier on the menu for tomorrow...very beautiful out here, smitten

Sounds like you're having a great time mate, the action on the Manse was much more than I expected today! Was at the St Malo and Mont St Michel TT stages last week but all the cycling for us was a little flatter than for you I think!

 

[Sniffer]

Reads like Froome is putting Contador to the sword on the final climb of todays stage.

 

[Kenny]

Got a 20 second penalty for cheating....well having a (clearly drug soaked) energy bar. Made no damage though as he increased his lead anyway.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yep, you can't take on any more feed in the final 5k. Worth the 20s as he might have completely blown up without the energy bar

 

[Knockout Ned]

We saw Porte chasing back on stuffing something in his back pocket, guessed he'd been back to the car for something.

Great day on the Alpe, very busy but plenty of space to found.

Completed my hat-trick of legendary climbs for the week

 

[From Distant Shores]

Completed my hat-trick of legendary climbs for the week

Knockout, Ned.

 

[Wombat del combate]

I read on the BBC feed that Brailsford is releasing/has released Froome's training data. As was pointed out by others, to get a true(r) picture of his improvement, we need his data pre-2011, otherwise it proves nothing. Even though it looks like he's got a stroll home barring falling off/a mechanical/Contador becoming Lazarus/being outed as a drug-fuelled loon I really don't want him to win: I can't warm to him and he comes across as a self-entitled wanker. Wiggins is also a wanker but he's got a bit of humour about him so I like him more.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

I read on the BBC feed that Brailsford is releasing/has released Froome's training data. As was pointed out by others, to get a true(r) picture of his improvement, we need his data pre-2011, otherwise it proves nothing. Even though it looks like he's got a stroll home barring falling off/a mechanical/Contador becoming Lazarus/being outed as a drug-fuelled loon I really don't want him to win: I can't warm to him and he comes across as a self-entitled wanker. Wiggins is also a wanker but he's got a bit of humour about him so I like him more.

They promised this over 12 months ago, it was always the same story.

Sky "we will release Froome's data so you can have a look at it"
Media "that's great, can we have (insert certain specific data)"
Sky " we would love to but either
a) this would get out into the open and we would lose our advantage over our competitors
or
b) the data is very complicated and it could be open to misinterpretation which wouldn't solve the issue.

Now they have finally released some data but not all of it. It doesn't show how somebody who was (relatively speaking) crap until 2011, at the age of 26 suddenly starts putting in performances which are the best in the history of the tour de france when you realise they are only bettered by the biggest cheat in history, and are better then the all-time greats some of whom were doped up at the time.

I don't like him either, has got very whiney recently, complaining about Contador daring to attack on a descent etc.

 

[PuntsWolf]

This may be narrow minded of me but I don't get the problem. It's cycling. Yes like any sport some people have genetic advantages and also you need good race craft to be successful.

But if Froome trains harder than anyone else for a few years he will be better? Couldn't that be the reason he is doing well?

 

[Wombat del combate]

Yes, whinging at Contador for overcooking it: Christ, you'd think Alberto wanted to try and make a race of it, not follow the pseudo-Brit (I believe he has never resided in the UK? Just to open up that particular can of worms again ) home in a procession.

 

[Wombat del combate]

This may be narrow minded of me but I don't get the problem. It's cycling. Yes like any sport some people have genetic advantages and also you need good race craft to be successful.

But if Froome trains harder than anyone else for a few years he will be better? Couldn't that be the reason he is doing well?

It's reasonable but the scale and speed of improvement is what is attracting attention. It'd be like me doing some football training in my back garden and then getting signed by United on £100,000 a week. And no, my name is not Ali Dia.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I see what point you are trying to make but footballs a poor example. There are many variables to making a pro footballer. However cycling is mainly just power and stamina.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

if Pablo Andujar (currently no 50 in the world tennis rankings, age 27, career high 33) went next year to Wimbledon and the US Open and won both of them without dropping a set to Murray, Nadal, Federer and Djokovic and repeated that in 2015 then might raise a few eyebrows.

If a racehorse plodded around Aintree in the grand national for 3 years finishing in the middle to back half of the field then went away for some intense training came back the following year and won it while the rest of the field were jumping the last then not only would there be a jockey club enquiry there would also probably be a police investigation.

That is the equivalent to what Froome has done.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No it isn't. Not even close.

You might want to look at Wiggins results in his first two tours before he suddenly finished fourth

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Miguel Indurain TDF record:
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st

 

[Donegal Wolf]

No it isn't. Not even close.

You might want to look at Wiggins results in his first two tours before he suddenly finished fourth

Wiggins was converted from a track cyclist to road racing between 2005-08 he was still doing track racing as well, different animal altogether.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

How about Indurain then? All those low finishes because he was a domestique and expected to sacrifice himself for his team leader on Banesto, Pedro Delgado, and then when given his head he dominated.

Also all this comparing times to Lance Armstrong is a bit pointless. Last time I looked Usain Bolt's 100 metres world record was considerably faster than Ben Johnson's drug assisted mark.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Miguel Indurain TDF record:
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st

He was 20 in 1984, progressed each year as he got older, stronger and wiser, far more of a natural progression.
Agreed being a domestique to one of the contendors can affect their standing as well, who was Froome domestique to in 2008?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Clearly your mind is made up so there is no point in debating it with you.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Sorry Paddy you asked me a couple of questions and I came back with I thought reasonable answers.

As Wombat says, Froome's progression is way out from that you would expect from his previous pedigree and the improvement at this stage of his career is on a different curve from anyone else in cycling (and sport in general for that matter) and therefore following on from what has previously happened in cycling he should be under intense scrutiny. You may well be right (unfortunately your side of the argument can never prove 100% that you are right, whilst mine can if he ever failed a drugs test), it could be possible that he is a freak (for want of a better word) and along with hard work and training he has made this improvement but history is against that.

You mention Bolt beating Johnson's time, well to me Bolt is a freak, he was running 21.7 for the 200m and 48 secs for 400m at 15 years of age, so unless the Jamaican Athletics had him on rocket fuel at the time, the times he is producing now as mad as they are, are a natural progression.