Things that make you SAD thread.

[MARKakaJIM]

It's not just the cost though is it, most of the places that have combined sewers will be your older, more established towns and cities that were built before it was thought to be an issue. The logistics of doing that work in those places is terrifying, you'd be shutting entire towns down at times to get some of the work done and that's just not practical for anyone.

Building less houses doesn't really help with the housing shortage though? And it's not like it's an issue that only effects housing developments either, SuDS principles are used on everything these days but when you're developing brownfield sites you don't always have the luxury of endless space and freedom to plot your boundaries. Some sites just aren't practical to go the whole hog, I've seen it happen where someone has tried to install soakaways on a site where they were told the ground wouldn't permeate any of the water. Unsurprisingly it failed, so they adapted them to act as attenuation tanks instead but then there wasn't enough cover because the outfalls couldn't be made any deeper so when they filled with water all the crates floated up and broke through the ground above.

 

[Tredman]

In that case then you don't build, we simply cannot be building in places which do not drain sustainably - all you are doing is creating floods elsewhere. Harsh and yes we do need more housing, but the problem isn't just about stock its about what we build and where build it.

For separating systems I'd start with grey water re-use - offer people free conversion systems as we used to do with solar panels.

 

[sycophantia]

Thats an interesting chat between Tredman and Mark. I've learnt a little, although tbf most of its gone over my head.

 

[lemonjelly]

understand and completely agree that it is extremely sad to hear the news stories.
Equally, it did strike me how interesting it is that floods across 3 predominantly white countries in europe is receiving such coverage, and I am pretty sure that other countries regularly experience significant floods and higher deaths, but these stories aren't reported so prominently.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

You don't need to go full SuDS to have positive results though and there's also a hell of a volume of water coming from non-residential developments which can sometimes rely on other methods to mitigate the issues.

We do vast majority of our work on brownfield sites and I'd wager that in every instance we improve the drainage situation compared to what was there previously, it's not going to be as good as the natural process that existed maybe 100 years ago but it'll still be a huge improvement on what stood 10 year ago and if that sort of development becomes widespread then it'll be a huge burden lifted from exiting systems to help provide new capacity. We've got a job in Leicester at the moment that used to be a secondary school, now it's got two buildings for the university with a greater attendance than the old school and a spare plot for an additional building to come too. The outfall rate is far lower than what stood there before, thanks to a honking great swale that wraps around one end of the site, but I'd also guess that with modern plumbing systems there is less water used on site than previously too, despite the increased use.

I think greenfield developments need to be held to a higher account though, too many large developments have already taken place on former flood plains and the like which you'll now never recover the capacity of without demolishing them and starting again, preferably elsewhere.

 

[AndyWolves]

Is the elephant in the room that our weather is getting more violent / unpredictable?

 

[Tredman]

That’s why I posted it in this thread.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Drainage systems for new developments are designed for the 1 in 120 years flood scenario (although this is being seen with alot more frequency than that), the amount we can discharge from developments is based around the equivalent to a green field site, unless their was an existing discharge rate and even then these are being attacked.

I've done a lot of SUDs works in Primary schools of all places, but attenuation underground either within external hard pavings and/or a separate storage tanks with a hydro break fitted to limit the amount discharged.

There is a lot of work done around flooding at planning stage and carried through the design process. Wales has gone one step further and before planning can be grated the drainage strategy has to be complete and signed off, this is a real challenge to the Design process but the flood risk is so much higher there.

There is real work being done to catch this at source, in terms of agricultural land, there was a big drive back in the 80/90s to drain the flooded meadows which provided a lot of natural SUDs. We are a nation that is increasing its tree cover (we have had one of the lowest since WWII) not sure on any other agricultural impacts

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Some sites just aren't practical to go the whole hog, I've seen it happen where someone has tried to install soakaways on a site where they were told the ground wouldn't permeate any of the water. Unsurprisingly it failed, so they adapted them to act as attenuation tanks instead but then there wasn't enough cover because the outfalls couldn't be made any deeper so when they filled with water all the crates floated up and broke through the ground above.

I take it the chancer of a SM was sacked.

 

[Tredman]

Drainage systems for new developments are designed for the 1 in 120 years flood scenario (although this is being seen with alot more frequency than that), the amount we can discharge from developments is based around the equivalent to a green field site, unless their was an existing discharge rate and even then these are being attacked.

I've done a lot of SUDs works in Primary schools of all places, but attenuation underground either within external hard pavings and/or a separate storage tanks with a hydro break fitted to limit the amount discharged.

There is a lot of work done around flooding at planning stage and carried through the design process. Wales has gone one step further and before planning can be grated the drainage strategy has to be complete and signed off, this is a real challenge to the Design process but the flood risk is so much higher there.

There is real work being done to catch this at source, in terms of agricultural land, there was a big drive back in the 80/90s to drain the flooded meadows which provided a lot of natural SUDs. We are a nation that is increasing its tree cover (we have had one of the lowest since WWII) not sure on any other agricultural impacts

I know the guy behind the DWMPs in Wales and he has worked incredibly hard to pull it all together - only really possible as its one water utility (a not for profit too) and one local government. NI have something similar in the works - England is a flipping mess.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

I know the guy behind the DMPs in Wales and he has worked incredibly hard to pull it all together - only really possible as its one water utility (a not for profit too) and one local government. NI have something similar in the works - England is a flipping mess.

I'm sure theres plenty of people involved with Construction who would like to 'congratulate' your friend! It makes it very difficult for us but it does put the drainage up front and centre of the Design process, and given the increased risk in Wales it does make sense

I don't deal so much with the water authorities, but to make it a requirement for planning could come quite easily from Central Government, my personal thoughts are that they will more than likely instigate something similar once they've seen it play out in Wales

I am finding more that historic discharge rates, when you replace an existing building are starting to be challenged to be improved upon. It makes it a headache for us, but theres a million headaches in a construction project.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I take it the chancer of a SM was sacked.

Traditional contract, told them it wouldn't work but the client was adamant they wanted it built as per their design, think the attenuation bodge was an attempt from the engineer to save face with the client but then that failed too and it just ended up with a big attenuation tank elsewhere that they all fed into.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I'm sure theres plenty of people involved with Construction who would like to 'congratulate' your friend! It makes it very difficult for us but it does put the drainage up front and centre of the Design process, and given the increased risk in Wales it does make sense

I don't deal so much with the water authorities, but to make it a requirement for planning could come quite easily from Central Government, my personal thoughts are that they will more than likely instigate something similar once they've seen it play out in Wales

I am finding more that historic discharge rates, when you replace an existing building are starting to be challenged to be improved upon. It makes it a headache for us, but theres a million headaches in a construction project.

Tell me about it, I'm currently measuring distances of services from walls because a dryliner is telling me he can't finish his walls if the services go up first. He must have some fat plasterers.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Traditional contract, told them it wouldn't work but the client was adamant they wanted it built as per their design, think the attenuation bodge was an attempt from the engineer to save face with the client but then that failed too and it just ended up with a big attenuation tank elsewhere that they all fed into.

The Engineer would have have qualified that Percolation tests would be required to confirm suitability for a Soakaway?

No Engineer worth his salt would exclude that qualification and sign off a design based on using soakaways, his PI would be invalid from any claim for a start, thats basic competency, even people doing house extensions know to put that one in.

I'm sure as a trad project your team were only too helpful and let them carry on knowing it wouldn't work It must be 10 years since I worked on a trad job, if not longer.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

The Engineer would have have qualified that Percolation tests would be required to confirm suitability for a Soakaway?

No Engineer worth his salt would exclude that qualification and sign off a design based on using soakaways, his PI would be invalid from any claim for a start, thats basic competency, even people doing house extensions know to put that one in.

I'm sure as a trad project your team were only too helpful and let them carry on knowing it wouldn't work It must be 10 years since I worked on a trad job, if not longer.

I've only ever really been involved in one trad job properly, that drainage incident was just when I started working in construction and toured a few ongoing jobs to see what was what but that company did jobs for some truly awful clients so God knows how that situation ever got to where it did.

The other one was a new fire station round Dudley somewhere, Barrs Road rings a bell. That had a massive retaining wall down one side where a good portion of it got backfilled on both sides, tried to tell the client it wasn't required but they backed their engineer and cost them more money and time to build as a result, senseless.

We had a tender in for something recently actually that was a trad contract, think one of the York Universities, but we turned it down in the end as we had other things to work on.

 

[EdgeOfTheAlps]

My girlfriend is from the affected area, her parents have been evacuated because the dam may still burst, many of her family members homes have been damaged, old school friends homes have been swept away, and acquaintances are missing. She wants to go back as soon as she can to help but she'd just be another mouth to feed in the shelter her parents are in. I feel desperate for her.

 

[Freddeno]

yeah it is a horrible natural catastrophe in Germany, Netherlands and Belgium, may move on to Switzerland now..many homes destroyed and loved ones missing or dead..hard for the rescue team to get around too

 

[Tony Towner]

Cunts...high profile footballer makes money out of commercial partnerships...Love the fact he owns it and turns it back on them.

ahttps://twitter.com/MarcusRashford/status/1417560450393329666?s=19

 

[Kenny]

Just posted this in the Other Section....sadly something was due to come his way because thats how it works. Just like when they went both barrels at Raheem Sterling for doing the shitty thing of buying his Mum a house because he could afford to do so. Also did an odd story about him being tight with his money as he caught a flight back from Europe with a budget airline.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

You've got to be a special kind of stupid to go after Rashford given everything he's done and how popular he is (other than with the racists, God bless 'em).