Summer 2020 Transfer Window (Extended Version)

[prawnking]

Is it? Is it really?

It’s off putting for those wanting to use the forum. That’s for definite.

Are you talking about yourself? Come on, in these kind of TWF discussions, people being 'negative' are well outnumbered by 'positive' types (I don't agree with those distinctions btw). I speak from experience here!

There are two sides in these discussions, but it seems like it's only one side that are 'putting you off'?

 

[YoungWolf]

Agreed there. I wanted genuine first team options - the kind you'd be happy to start more often than not - at centre back and centre mid, and then some hot prospect types who you'd still be happy starting one in every four at rwb and cf, with a view to succession planning. I'm happy to give vinagre six months of guaranteed starts tbh as I think it'll do his development the world of good. But we now need 3 first team ready players, at least one of which needs to slot right in and not need time to settle, and start every game until young Luke is ready to be a genuine option.

For me I'm looking at this:

Rui

CB
Coady
Boly

RWB
Neves
Moutinho
Vinagre

Traore
Raul
Jota

Subs: Ruddy, Saiss, WB, Dendoncker, CAM, Neto, Podence

Squad: Sondegaard/Sarkic, Kilman, Otasowie, Buur, Jordao, Campana.

So that would be four signings (ideally one the new wing back would be like Maitland-Niles and can cover both sides), with Jonny to return mid to late season and Gibbs-White back next summer hopefully having a strong season with Swansea. It's achievable for sure. Not neccesarily before the first game against Sheffield United but in the near future.

I guess others may want a striker so can make that five - I think that is going to be trickier personally with the current situation. Could change if we sold Raul

 

[Freddeno]

Comfortably the weakest bench in the top 7?......I'd dispute that, potentially against Sheff Utd we could have 3 of, Jota, Neto, Traore, Podence, Donck, Moutinho on the bench, not many I'd take of the others instead (outside of Liverpool/City obviously

come on, behave

 

[Deano]

I always see people trying to absolve the club of any blame on the Cutrone and Vallejo transfers by saying things like "who wouldn't have been happy with players from AC Milan and Real Madrid" which is wrong really.

The club a player comes from is pretty irrelevant, United owned Djemba Djemba once.

It's ok saying that fans are having a go in hindsight but they have every right to as from the outset Vallejo never looked comfortable in either he system we play and he didn't have the stature to play in the Premier League - Cutrone looks ok to a point but again he was a player that needs a lot of regular service into the box and we don't really play like that. It's not just about signing "good players" its fitting them into the country, culture and style of play. In the past we have been told the club do a massive amount of research and hundreds of pages of documentation on potential signings, sure you are never going to get a 100% hit rate, nobody does but you can't on one hand praise the club for signing the likes of Neto and Podence but absolve them of any blame of signings that don't work.

 

[Kenny]

Do people try to absolve the blame or just look for reasons why they failed? As pointed out previously Jesus came with some pretty decent reports and had performed well on his previous loan. he showed the attributes we wanted but for whatever reason he couldn't get over his shaky start and turned into a bag of nerves. No matter how much research you put in, you are not going to consider that happening. The only way you can really see that is going to be an issue is if he performed like that previously...then if he did, we wouldn't be signing him.
Cutrone was added to try and mix up the forward line, give us something different when needed but it turned out he was impatient and also a tad homesick. The only part we could have planned for is the homesick bit but if the player doesn't arrive with family/friends only so much we can do (i mean we even replaced a burger van ouside the North Bank with one selling Pizza and Lasagne...). We can't force him people to join him so you have to hope they settle in. Might have been easier if he was starting most weeks but that was never going to happen really.

Transfers fail but at least these 2 carry a degree of an explantation why they failed rather than from the off we are saying "why the fuck are we signing him".

 

[Deano]

Do people try to absolve the blame or just look for reasons why they failed? As pointed out previously Jesus came with some pretty decent reports and had performed well on his previous loan. he showed the attributes we wanted but for whatever reason he couldn't get over his shaky start and turned into a bag of nerves. No matter how much research you put in, you are not going to consider that happening. The only way you can really see that is going to be an issue is if he performed like that previously...then if he did, we wouldn't be signing him.
Cutrone was added to try and mix up the forward line, give us something different when needed but it turned out he was impatient and also a tad homesick. The only part we could have planned for is the homesick bit but if the player doesn't arrive with family/friends only so much we can do (i mean we even replaced a burger van ouside the North Bank with one selling Pizza and Lasagne...). We can't force him people to join him so you have to hope they settle in. Might have been easier if he was starting most weeks but that was never going to happen really.

Transfers fail but at least these 2 carry a degree of an explantation why they failed rather than from the off we are saying "why the fuck are we signing him".

I'd say they try to absolve the club from blame.rsther than looking for reasons why they failed because I've seen quotes along the lines of "we signed a player from AC Milan and Real Madrid" as justification from multiple posters when really that means little until you look at the players on their own merits.

 

[Kenny]

"we signed a player from AC Milan and Real Madrid" .

Agree that is bollocks but I don't see much of that on here (might be wrong as I have to scan posts these days or I am slitting my wrists after 30 mins of reading).

 

[The Bion]

and Jeff has done that since becoming Chairman. Thelwell might have done the talking but it was never signed off until Jeff gave the thumbs up and he was often part of the talks when buying/selling. All that has changed now is the people below him and the structure tweaked. So we have football people, such as Sellars, the other dude who's name I forget and it seems Nuno is now more involved in the process. No fear of Jeff taking on too much for me, on each side of the business he has put people he trusts in charge and he steps in when it gets to the stage where he is required.

Just to play devil's advocate on this, and I think this has come up before, but I could see a concern where potentially the dissenting voices have been replaced by those more inclined to be agreeable, let's say. Which would not be in the interests of the club, ultimately.

I have zero evidence for this, to be clear. But I'm reasonably certain at the least that Thelwell, for his faults (and lord knows those have been gone over) had years of experience at doing this kind of thing...I'm not aware that those now in place do. Experience in itself is not the be all and end all, obviously, and Jeff is not a mug to be in the position he is now, but it does make me wonder a bit.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Despite favourable stats that on face value suggest the fee is low those of us who have watched him know he’s in a specialist role that few other teams play. If we can see it others can. Spurs seem to want to use him slightly differently to us but may allow him to push forward more than their left back so Mourinho clearly sees a role for him. If Nuno wants to change things a little and is prepared to let Doherty go we can only sell him for what someone will pay. Given the speculation other teams would have known he’s available but nobody has come in and offered more, so we’ve got a fair price.

You say that but we signed a CB last summer who can’t head, can’t defend 1 v 1 in the channel, gets bullied easily and is nothing special on the ball. Add to that a striker who is physically weak, doesn’t make up for that with pace and can’t play with his back to goal. Clubs scout players badly and sign bad players.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

As long as we replace him adequately I'm happy for Doherty to go.

I agree that the fee is too low but this is the way it seems to work with Mendes, some players come/go seemingly cheaply and some come/go over the odds. If Mendes pulls some strings and sends a few more quality players our way then that's fine with me.

Hopefully there will be a few incomings in the next couple of weeks. We definitely need a much better window than last summer if we are to progress.

 

[Kenny]

You say that but we signed a CB last summer who can’t head, can’t defend 1 v 1 in the channel, gets bullied easily and is nothing special on the ball.

Yet he was none of that at his previous club. Lords knows what happened to Jesus once he pulled on a Wolves shirt but all his attributes got on the plane and flew back to Madrid leaving us with the useless shell.

 

[From Distant Shores]

Personally, I'm pretty relaxed about the summer transfer window and would be happy if the only business we do is to sell Matt Doherty as he will have held on too much more important players. I don't think for a minute that Doherty will be our last deal this window.

I would be worried if I thought Nuno was on his way somewhere else but as long as he's not I don't have any worries. I only get to enjoy watching Wolves on TV but as long as we stay in the Premier League, I get to see each and every league game in full on these distant shores. (Not all the games are shown live but they do show the whole of every premier league game.)

 

[From Distant Shores]

By the way, I could see Ryan Bennett in at right (wing) back against Sheff United for the last part of the game to guard against the last minute goals we've given away in the last few matches.

 

[sycophantia]

come on, behave

Behave? Really?
Ok I'll give you a scenario,
Patricio
Doc/AMN Boly Coady, Saiss, Vinagre
Neves Moutinho
Traore Raul Jota
That leaves Donck, Neto, Podence on the bench, yes a bit light in other areas but would you swap any of Spurs, Leicester, Chelsea, Man U alsorans for any of them...I wouldn't, so no I don't think we have the worst bench in the top 7

 

[PuntsWolf]

Yet he was none of that at his previous club. Lords knows what happened to Jesus once he pulled on a Wolves shirt but all his attributes got on the plane and flew back to Madrid leaving us with the useless shell.

You say that but unless he shrunk 2 inches and lost 2 stone then the writing was on the wall and clearly obvious he’d struggle 1) In a physical league and 2) in a position where he has to be physical because he is playing alongside Coady. That’s poor scouting, a panic buy/signing for the sake of it/backup target, call it what you want.

Now you don’t have to be Harry Maguire or Van Dijk specimens to succeed in the PL. Otamendi isn’t a physical beast but he doesn’t get bullied because he’s a nasty fucker, sadly it’s his ability that lets him down. Vallejo wasn’t a nasty fucker, weak body, weak heart, weak mind.

Same on Cutrone. Let’s pretend he was actually really good finisher playing off the shoulder. That’s not how we play. Jamie Vardy would struggle in our team. Sadly Benik Afobe would have been a better buy than Cutrone because he has equally good movement but backs that up with pace and finishing ability.

And while I’m at it. The talk about “puts people off reading the forum” is very strange. I mean we are all weird for coming on here in the first place but to then be put off from reading opinions is max level weird.

 

[AndyWolves]

Rui
Adama Boly Coady Saiss Vinagre
Neves mout
Podence Raul Neto

If no more come in that's most likely our starting XI with Jota and Donck interchangeable if we need them

It's a very pacey line up

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Sadly Benik Afobe would have been a better buy than Cutrone because he has equally good movement but backs that up with pace and finishing ability.

Hold up now :icon_lol:

 

[PuntsWolf]

I don't understand why in some people's minds the club HAVE to get everything right. . Mild criticism or questioning is treated like heresy sometimes.

I'm sure we can all agree that the first year aside, Fosun's ownership of the club has been fantatsic, delivering 3 years of success beyond any of our realistic dreams and that has brought an element of deserved trust.
That doesn't however mean that every decision made is correct and individual ones aren't at least open to scrutiny.

People are putting 2 unrelated opinions/information together and making them fact. The first is that Doherty is in the first 2 players from the starting 11 that could and should be upgraded, the second is that therefore £15m is about the right value for your worst/second worse starting player. I don't agree that those 2 points are related. The vast majority, myself included would agree with the first, but for me the second doesn't necessarily follow.

I'm not going to go through the list of reasons again why I think it's at least £5m undervalued, you either agree or you don't, other than to say there are 2 new pieces of information which I still don't see as justification. The first is Nuno's agreement to the sale and the second is Doherty wants it. The former means he was informed there was interest from Tottenham, if we get a offer we like would you be ok with him going, it doesn't mean he signed off on the fee. The latter doesn't mean he was agitating for the move and had thrown his toys, he could have been told that we'll let you know when we get a deal we like. The deal seems to have been resolved very quickly, now if we play hardball perhaps Spurs walk, perhaps Doherty does have a strop or perhaps after 3/4 days we get another few million who knows?

There wasn't a 'what is Matt Doherty worth poll' on here a week ago, but when the original £12m was linked, it was generally viewed with derision. The club have accepted £15m and because they have that's now his value. That's not necessarily so, that's the value they've accepted, it doesn't make it correct and yes they know better than me and others who disagree etc, but it doesn't mean they are in the right on this occasion. Also just to throw another talking point out there, this is Jeff's deal - all the others Costa, Cav etc were Thelwell's. He's not from a football background so who is advising him, what are their credentials and are they competent? If the answer to that is Mendes, then as Doherty's agent that's murky to say the least. If it isn't then who is it?

As for the Jaguar analogy earlier. I'd make sure I'd secured the deal on it first before trading in my old car, otherwise if the finance on that falls through I'm left with nothing to drive. Doherty hasn't left yet, I hope when he does the ink is dry on the contract of his replacement and is not still work in progress

This is superb TT.

Like I said the other day, I don’t think people actually believe what they are saying. They literally can’t.

People taking the literal “13 players” argument. Yes we had more, but did you not watch last season? Players were literally shagged and he still wouldn’t bring them on. BuT cAmPaNa AnD bUrR!!!! Get in the sea [emoji1787]

 

[YoungWolf]

Disagree on Cutrone. Good footballer, gets in very good positions and presses very well. His problem was that Raul is available every game, and you don’t drop your best striker. I think Patrick really struggled with that and ultimately was the reason he asked to leave, otherwise we would have preserved with him (nuno said as much not that long before he did go). He’s far, far better than Afobe

It’s a tricky scenario, the forward one. I’ve said before I’m personally comfortable with our current five attacking options as I think it’s very tricky to get someone to just sit on the bench

 

[PuntsWolf]

Hold up now :icon_lol:

What can I say, I didn’t rate Italian Pat, you don’t rate Irish Matt.

Disagree on Cutrone. Good footballer, gets in very good positions and presses very well. His problem was that Raul is available every game, and you don’t drop your best striker. I think Patrick really struggled with that and ultimately was the reason he asked to leave, otherwise we would have preserved with him (nuno said as much not that long before he did go). He’s far, far better than Afobe

It’s a tricky scenario, the forward one. I’ve said before I’m personally comfortable with our current five attacking options as I think it’s very tricky to get someone to just sit on the bench

It’s been done to death hasn’t it, whether he was or wasn’t good is irrelevant. It’s just making my point that clubs sign duds, to dismiss the “Spurs know he’s rubbish so are paying less” argument.