Summer 2017 Window Thread

[pr0sl0]

Getting strong deja vu from this story: https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...l-lambert-paves-way-for-mass-wolves-clearout/

Pretty sure I read something almost word-for-word the same back when Jackett first arrived. But anyway, not sure it's *that* overloaded a squad once you subtract the obvious dead weight who we know are almost certainly being released at the end of the season. Here's the list from the article:

Goalkeepers: Carl Ikeme, Andy Lonergan, Harry Burgoyne

Full backs: Dominic Iorfa, Conor Coady, Matt Doherty, Silvio (out of contract), Cameron Borthwick Jackson (on loan)

Centre backs: Danny Batth, Kortney Hause, Mike Williamson (out of contract), Richard Stearman (on loan), Ethan Ebanks-Landell (out on loan)

Central midfielders: David Edwards, Lee Evans, Romain Saiss, Jack Price (out of contract), George Saville (out of contract), Prince Oniangue (out on loan) Connor Ronan, Morgan Gibbs-White

Wingers: Helder Costa, Ivan Cavaleiro, Ben Marshall, Jordan Graham, Michal Zyro, James Henry (out of contract), Jed Wallace (out on loan)

Forwards: Nouha Dicko, Jon Dadi Bodvarsson, Joe Mason, Andres Weimann, Bright Enobakhare, Paul Gladon

Assume that the out of contract players (Price, Saville, Williamson, Silvio, Henry) and loanee (CBJ) won't be here, nor will some others for well-known reasons (Gladon, Wallace), plus that Weimann's loan will be made permanent. Straight away, that's down from 34 to 26, and possibly even 25 or 24 depending on whether we see Oniangue again and whether Costa goes (and I think it's safe to assume that he will, sadly.)

Assuming that both of those two leave, that gives us this squad:

Goalkeepers: Carl Ikeme, Andy Lonergan, Harry Burgoyne

Full backs: Dominic Iorfa, Conor Coady, Matt Doherty

Centre backs: Danny Batth, Kortney Hause, Ethan Ebanks-Landell

Central midfielders: David Edwards, Lee Evans, Romain Saiss, Connor Ronan, Morgan Gibbs-White

Wingers: Ivan Cavaleiro, Ben Marshall, Jordan Graham, Michal Zyro

Forwards: Nouha Dicko, Jon Dadi Bodvarsson, Joe Mason, Andreas Weimann, Bright Enobakhare

A few points:

- I know we're all very excited about Gibbs-White and Ronan, but honestly, I'm not comfortable going into a season assuming that two kids are going to be the answers to our long-standing midfield problems. It's also not good for their development to be playing week-in, week-out at Championship level at their age. Keep them in the first-team squad, but at their age they should be seen as rotation options, not starters.
- Enobakhare, too, is at an awkward stage of development where he's too good for the U23s, but not quite there yet for the first team, and a loan to a decent footballing side in League 1 might well be the best next stage for him.
- We also still look fairly strong on the wing, even without Costa, but that's entirely dependent on whether Zyro and Graham come back as strong as they were before injury - I don't think we can assume anything there, especially considering Cavaleiro's niggling injury issues this season so far too.
- Then there are the players where there are question marks over their ability regardless of their contract or propensity for injury; EEL, Lonergan, Bodvarsson, and possibly even Mason and Saiss, quite frankly. That's still a handful of players, but it's no Jackett-style bomb squad. But if we were to shed most or all of them, we'd have a seriously threadbare squad. I don't think we will do that. The noises coming out of the club haven't been of the "complete rebuild" type, and there are certain players we love to hate on (Edwards and Doherty, in particular) who clearly aren't going anywhere even if they aren't good enough for where we want to be.

And of course we've all basically agreed that we need:

1) An actual left-back
2) One, and possibly two, central midfielders
3) Another winger (maybe on loan just for the six months, until we know Graham and Zyro are both OK)
4) A striker
5) Ideally a new goalkeeper

That'll bring us right back up to near 30 players again, but I don't think that would feel bloated at all when you account for players who would only be expected to be there for squad depth, or who are too young to be consistent starters yet.

 

[Langers]

Good assessment proslo. Lambert has stated on numerous occasions that players will be coming in - so I think those 30 players will be cut down even more.

 

[pr0sl0]

I guess Mason's another who might find himself needing a new club, but it's hard to figure out who the club rates and who they don't because they keep giving dross like Doherty and EEL new long-term contracts.

 

[Johnny75]

Can't argue with that Proslo.

 

[Freddeno]

Illuminati shit that is

what, you mean illuminati and David Icke is not correct??

 

[Langers]

I'm resigned to the fact that we won't get the clearout I ideally want because that would leave around 6 players and the frecent academy graduates. We're not going to be signing 15-odd players in this window.

But really, there are very, very few players who have proven their worth if we've any aspirations of being a top 6 side.

 

[Tony Towner]

Getting strong deja vu from this story: https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...l-lambert-paves-way-for-mass-wolves-clearout/

Pretty sure I read something almost word-for-word the same back when Jackett first arrived. But anyway, not sure it's *that* overloaded a squad once you subtract the obvious dead weight who we know are almost certainly being released at the end of the season. Here's the list from the article:

Goalkeepers: Carl Ikeme, Andy Lonergan, Harry Burgoyne

Full backs: Dominic Iorfa, Conor Coady, Matt Doherty, Silvio (out of contract), Cameron Borthwick Jackson (on loan)

Centre backs: Danny Batth, Kortney Hause, Mike Williamson (out of contract), Richard Stearman (on loan), Ethan Ebanks-Landell (out on loan)

Central midfielders: David Edwards, Lee Evans, Romain Saiss, Jack Price (out of contract), George Saville (out of contract), Prince Oniangue (out on loan) Connor Ronan, Morgan Gibbs-White

Wingers: Helder Costa, Ivan Cavaleiro, Ben Marshall, Jordan Graham, Michal Zyro, James Henry (out of contract), Jed Wallace (out on loan)

Forwards: Nouha Dicko, Jon Dadi Bodvarsson, Joe Mason, Andres Weimann, Bright Enobakhare, Paul Gladon

Assume that the out of contract players (Price, Saville, Williamson, Silvio, Henry) and loanee (CBJ) won't be here, nor will some others for well-known reasons (Gladon, Wallace), plus that Weimann's loan will be made permanent. Straight away, that's down from 34 to 26, and possibly even 25 or 24 depending on whether we see Oniangue again and whether Costa goes (and I think it's safe to assume that he will, sadly.)

Assuming that both of those two leave, that gives us this squad:

Goalkeepers: Carl Ikeme, Andy Lonergan, Harry Burgoyne

Full backs: Dominic Iorfa, Conor Coady, Matt Doherty

Centre backs: Danny Batth, Kortney Hause, Ethan Ebanks-Landell

Central midfielders: David Edwards, Lee Evans, Romain Saiss, Connor Ronan, Morgan Gibbs-White

Wingers: Ivan Cavaleiro, Ben Marshall, Jordan Graham, Michal Zyro

Forwards: Nouha Dicko, Jon Dadi Bodvarsson, Joe Mason, Andreas Weimann, Bright Enobakhare

A few points:

- I know we're all very excited about Gibbs-White and Ronan, but honestly, I'm not comfortable going into a season assuming that two kids are going to be the answers to our long-standing midfield problems. It's also not good for their development to be playing week-in, week-out at Championship level at their age. Keep them in the first-team squad, but at their age they should be seen as rotation options, not starters.
- Enobakhare, too, is at an awkward stage of development where he's too good for the U23s, but not quite there yet for the first team, and a loan to a decent footballing side in League 1 might well be the best next stage for him.
- We also still look fairly strong on the wing, even without Costa, but that's entirely dependent on whether Zyro and Graham come back as strong as they were before injury - I don't think we can assume anything there, especially considering Cavaleiro's niggling injury issues this season so far too.
- Then there are the players where there are question marks over their ability regardless of their contract or propensity for injury; EEL, Lonergan, Bodvarsson, and possibly even Mason and Saiss, quite frankly. That's still a handful of players, but it's no Jackett-style bomb squad. But if we were to shed most or all of them, we'd have a seriously threadbare squad. I don't think we will do that. The noises coming out of the club haven't been of the "complete rebuild" type, and there are certain players we love to hate on (Edwards and Doherty, in particular) who clearly aren't going anywhere even if they aren't good enough for where we want to be.

And of course we've all basically agreed that we need:

1) An actual left-back
2) One, and possibly two, central midfielders
3) Another winger (maybe on loan just for the six months, until we know Graham and Zyro are both OK)
4) A striker
5) Ideally a new goalkeeper

That'll bring us right back up to near 30 players again, but I don't think that would feel bloated at all when you account for players who would only be expected to be there for squad depth, or who are too young to be consistent starters yet.

This doesn't take into account the likes of Herc, Wilson, Johnson, Ennis and Ruddy all of who need more than U23 football next year be it here or elsewhere. Other than the obvious candidates we should do our hardest to get rid of the likes of Mason, Bod, EEL, Lonergan etc who may get in the way of their development. I would much prefer to see Wilson on the bench next season than Bod for example. If that means selling them below their theoretical worth them so be it.

 

[Stan Hullis]

This doesn't take into account the likes of Herc, Wilson, Johnson, Ennis and Ruddy all of who need more than U23 football next year be it here or elsewhere. Other than the obvious candidates we should do our hardest to get rid of the likes of Mason, Bod, EEL, Lonergan etc who may get in the way of their development. I would much prefer to see Wilson on the bench next season than Bod for example. If that means selling them below their theoretical worth them so be it.

But...who is going to lead the Zoo animals in their seal chant then?

 

[pr0sl0]

This doesn't take into account the likes of Herc, Wilson, Johnson, Ennis and Ruddy all of who need more than U23 football next year be it here or elsewhere. Other than the obvious candidates we should do our hardest to get rid of the likes of Mason, Bod, EEL, Lonergan etc who may get in the way of their development. I would much prefer to see Wilson on the bench next season than Bod for example. If that means selling them below their theoretical worth them so be it.

Yeah, this is very true - a lot of how we should interpret that "23 players" thing from Lambert comes down to whether the youth players are included in the count, or whether they're ancillary and will still be primarily players for the U23s. It's difficult, really. We want some of these prospects to get the progression into the first team squad that they need, but we also clearly need to be buying players who are nailed-on starters in their positions.

The obvious solution is to, as you say, get rid of players like Mason, Bodvarsson, EEL, Lonergan, etc., but I don't think we will. EEL has that new contract, for one, and the coaching consensus seems to be that Bodvarsson needs a break after playing non-stop for two years so shouldn't be written off yet. We might well be able to farm Lonergan out somewhere I guess, but if you're him, wouldn't you be happy to sit out the last year of your contract, doing nothing, as emergency third or fourth choice? And as much as Mason is very much a nothing player, he can do a job in the formation we play if needed, so has some utility just in case I suppose. But I'd hope we'd always go for a player like Bright ahead of him now.

 

[Tony Towner]

Yeah, this is very true - a lot of how we should interpret that "23 players" thing from Lambert comes down to whether the youth players are included in the count, or whether they're ancillary and will still be primarily players for the U23s. It's difficult, really. We want some of these prospects to get the progression into the first team squad that they need, but we also clearly need to be buying players who are nailed-on starters in their positions.

The obvious solution is to, as you say, get rid of players like Mason, Bodvarsson, EEL, Lonergan, etc., but I don't think we will. EEL has that new contract, for one, and the coaching consensus seems to be that Bodvarsson needs a break after playing non-stop for two years so shouldn't be written off yet. We might well be able to farm Lonergan out somewhere I guess, but if you're him, wouldn't you be happy to sit out the last year of your contract, doing nothing, as emergency third or fourth choice? And as much as Mason is very much a nothing player, he can do a job in the formation we play if needed, so has some utility just in case I suppose. But I'd hope we'd always go for a player like Bright ahead of him now.

I don't disagree with your analysis and think you are probably correct, but if you keep players like Mason around just because they could come in and do a job if really needed, then you are either automatically bloating your squad or hampering younger players development.

I thought Jackett's Group 3 strategy was harsh on the likes of Foley and Ward who didn't deserve to be outcasts, but it made them understand where they stood. If we want to make a statement to those who have comfortable contracts and don't want to leave then that's the sort of statement we should make. Equally we need to be pragmatic on fees, just get rid and build from there.

 

[pr0sl0]

I don't disagree with your analysis and think you are probably correct, but if you keep players like Mason around just because they could come in and do a job if really needed, then you are either automatically bloating your squad or hampering younger players development.

I thought Jackett's Group 3 strategy was harsh on the likes of Foley and Ward who didn't deserve to be outcasts, but it made them understand where they stood. If we want to make a statement to those who have comfortable contracts and don't want to leave then that's the sort of statement we should make. Equally we need to be pragmatic on fees, just get rid and build from there.

Oh, I agree! I'm just saying it's what I think the club may be thinking RE: players like Mason, or Doherty, or maybe even (and this would be a shock) Saville. Though hopefully the club also realises that a much better solution to keeping George Saville on would be to *sign a left-back*. I really do wonder about EEL, too. Like, he's clearly, *clearly* not good enough for the Championship, so have we given him a new contract just to bump up his value for this summer? Would be harsh on him, but I just can't figure it out otherwise.

Even if we're not going to see a complete rebuild of the squad, we are in a position where we can build an entirely new defence around Hause (and, hopefully, Iorfa), which is encouraging considering our problems there over the last couple of seasons.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I suspect he'll be more ruthless than people think. Successive lower mid-table finishes with a pathetic home record don't lie. There is one common factor across those two seasons.

A mentality of "he'll do" simply has to end, top end squads in this division don't have players appearing 25+ times a season who you're terrified of picking because they're no good. I can deal with the likes of Ikeme, Edwards and Batth being here as fringe options but nothing more than that. Then there's the whole sea of dreck that simply needs to go as they aren't any kind of choice to have.

That snippet about the left back situation - which weirdly, I've seen Lambert CRITICISED for on Twitter, some folk are beyond help - is pretty telling for me. It'd be easy for him to roll out a line about how Doherty was Player of the Year last season in that role and has done ok this year (well he hasn't, but it's the kind of thing managers say), but he hasn't done that. He's said he's not a left back. Correct Paul, he isn't. We aren't going to muddle through with substandard shite, Lambert knows he can't afford to because he'll be the one who loses his job in the end if we do, it makes no sense for the club to do it because of our financial position, our stated ambitions and what the owners ultimately want in terms of a financial/brand exposure return.

These aren't toxic players in terms of reputation like RoJo was, most of them will find new clubs. Like Tony says we don't want to dick around on fees, what's gone is gone. Get rid of them. Make it clear they aren't going to play here so if they don't want to rot like Gladon has all season, they need to move, even if it is taking a step down. A step down they need to take, so many of them have no business being at a club like this.

 

[Norman Deeley]

Completely agree - and we'll get an early indication with the news on Saville and Stearman. Both perfectly adequate performers for someone else, but nowhere near good enough for where we are [apparently] going. If Saville is offered a new contract that - for me - will be very grim omen

 

[Lycan]

Rumour that Johnny Howson might leave Norwich this summer. Get him in!

 

[Tony Towner]

I'd imagine he'll have PL options, but agree if a deal can be done we should do it.

 

[slink]

If we could do it then it's a no brainer imo but i think he'll have Premier league options like TT said and if not then he would hope Leeds wanted him.

 

[machin05]

Graham‏ @graham_large 10m10 minutes ago

I've been told the first three releases are Saville, Silvio and Williamson. Watch this space. #wwfc

...

 

[Langers]

Also from Graham on Twitter:

Notice the word 'first'. Heard Lonergan and Coady are preparing to leave too.

If this is the case, I'd feel sorry for Silvio but really couldn't argue with the decision.

 

[Tony Towner]

Who's he? Reliable? No issue with any of it.

 

[YoungWolf]

It's a gamble on his fitness, he can obviously play, but like with Williamson is it worth it?

PLEASE let us be selling Coady. Not sure who would want him mind.