Norwich (A) 31/10 Build-Up Thread #bogeyteam #mayaswellnotbother

[PuntsWolf]

Yeah for the goal, I've just watched it again and as i say if Miranda puts himself between the ball and Smith, then Smith isn't getting his head on it, it was weak.



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This Is a terrible argument. How can he stand between Smith and the ball?

He stands in the right place, Smith makes a good run and the cross is on point. He then loses a 50/50 battle to a guy whose bigger and better in the air than him. Shit happens, sometimes you just have to say good goal. When teams have players like Smith, Carroll, Carew etc. Your emphasis needs to be more on stopping the supply rather than winning the battle, because you won't win the battle.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Don't think we could have done too much to stop the cross. We sent the players out there, it was just a decent ball and a good header.

The first goal really does fuck me off though, there are about four errors in there.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

This Is a terrible argument. How can he stand between Smith and the ball?

He stands in the right place, Smith makes a good run and the cross is on point. He then loses a 50/50 battle to a guy whose bigger and better in the air than him. Shit happens, sometimes you just have to say good goal. When teams have players like Smith, Carroll, Carew etc. Your emphasis needs to be more on stopping the supply rather than winning the battle, because you won't win the battle.

I wonder if you'd be quite so reasonable if had been Batth beaten as easily as that?

Miranda made it too easy for him, if you are up against a big bloke you get yourself ball side/between the ball and the player, for Smith though it's practically a free header.

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[Deutsch Wolf]

Smith gets the run on him and when it's a bloke that size you aren't stopping him.

Could Rodders be a bit further out, maybe a bit tighter to stop that run? Could our defensive line be a touch further up? Maybe.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I wonder if you'd be quite so reasonable if had been Batth beaten as easily as that?

Miranda made it too easy for him, if you are up against a big bloke you get yourself ball side/between the ball and the player, for Smith though it's practically a free header.

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Hold you horses mate! Where have I stated which side of the fence I'm on! I couldn't care less which one of them is binned, there's not much in it. I'd probably bin Miranda as DB more of a goal threat!

You have your opinion, but your ways of putting it across have more holes than Swiss cheese.

As for your second paragraph, it makes no sense. Your starting position cannot be in front of the player. So he cannot get in front of him from the correct starting position (which he is in). Smith does what any good big striker does, Gambles on a near post run and hopes the winger (who he trains with everyday), puts it on the money. Which he does and Smith wins it and scores.

Your thoughts about pass completion are also poor. It literally means nothing without context, as was explained last time, and I can't be bothered to do it again.

You obviously don't rate Miranda and rate DB highly, that's fair enough, as I said I'm probably on your side, but there's nothing in it. But your arguments are very much clutching and straws for me and you are doing exactly the same as what you are accusing your opposition of doing.

 

[Johnny75]

Yeah for the goal, I've just watched it again and as i say if Miranda puts himself between the ball and Smith, then Smith isn't getting his head on it, it was weak.



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No mention of Danny losing Hugill then. If you want to have a Danny schlongfest then by all means. Pass completion is a shit method of data collection without context (a player could make 10 passes, all backwards and not affect the game but hey ho he has a 100% pass rate.

Miranda isn't replacing Coady so that argument is plain silly, he would replace Batth who is nowhere near as good as Miranda on the ball. Some of the runs Miranda has gone on and some of the forward passing has been exceptional. In a different league to Danny, who himself has improved massively from the hoofball merchant from last year.

I have no idea what you are trying to prove by saying you are right when your argument is simply your opinion and as subjective as you get.

 

[slink]

Yeah for the goal, I've just watched it again and as i say if Miranda puts himself between the ball and Smith, then Smith isn't getting his head on it, it was weak.



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He can't do this. The goal comes from the free kick and if you watch the goal as a whole when the ball hits the wall and goes towards the left hand side Smith is at the back post with Coady the closest defender. Miranda looks behind him and is making his way over there when the cross comes in which is a great cross and Smith makes the run across him. He really can't do anything but what he did and hope the header isn't as good as it was in the end.

If you were criticising Miranda for Smiths earlier chance then i would agree with you, he gets caught under the ball and makes it far too easy for Smith to head at goal, fortunately he headed it wide. Apart from that chance i thought he was solid again especially in the first half where Sylla got absolutely nothing. Whereas Washington on Batth's side cause all sorts of problems including scoring the opening goal, now if i was being harsh i could criticise Batth for switching off because we have the ball and let Washington stand between him and Coady but i haven't. Washington also caused problems second half and there were numerous times he outmuscled Danny and he really shouldn't be doing that.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I don't rate Batth "very highly" i simply want parity and fairness between how Miranda and Batth are judged and i don't think we get that from a lot of Wolves fans, i think Batth has given a lot of fans a bloody nose who had written him off and they are quick to criticise rather than compliment him.

Miranda is benefiting by being a new and "exotic" signing where his faults and mistakes aren't analysed as thoroughly as someone more established (such as Batth) this isn't just on here, it's people in the ground and on other forums.

By asking for all the chances that Miranda has created (or assists to assistors) with his expansive passing ability I'm asking for context, but i know other than *that* pass at Forest and a side footed strike into the side netting against Villa there will be nothing that proves Miranda is the far better ball player, especially when Batth statistically keeps the ball better.

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[Elephant Pyjamas]

No mention of Danny losing Hugill then. If you want to have a Danny schlongfest then by all means. Pass completion is a shit method of data collection without context (a player could make 10 passes, all backwards and not affect the game but hey ho he has a 100% pass rate.

Miranda isn't replacing Coady so that argument is plain silly, he would replace Batth who is nowhere near as good as Miranda on the ball. Some of the runs Miranda has gone on and some of the forward passing has been exceptional. In a different league to Danny, who himself has improved massively from the hoofball merchant from last year.

I have no idea what you are trying to prove by saying you are right when your argument is simply your opinion and as subjective as you get.

Batth lost Huggill and that was poor, no doubt. A lack of concentration there, thankfully it didn't cost us any points.

Miranda had a bit of a run and an effort against Villa that was good, other than that??? He certainly hasn't come close to scoring any goals, which Batth has managed from set pieces.

Passing wise i regularly see long rangy passes from Coady, i certainly don't see them from Miranda.

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[PuntsWolf]

I don't rate Batth "very highly" i simply want parity and fairness between how Miranda and Batth are judged and i don't think we get that from a lot of Wolves fans, i think Batth has given a lot of fans a bloody nose who had written him off and they are quick to criticise rather than compliment him.

Miranda is benefiting by being a new and "exotic" signing where his faults and mistakes aren't analysed as thoroughly as someone more established (such as Batth) this isn't just on here, it's people in the ground and on other forums.

By asking for all the chances that Miranda has created (or assists to assistors) with his expansive passing ability I'm asking for context, but i know other than *that* pass at Forest and a side footed strike into the side netting against Villa there will be nothing that proves Miranda is the fair better ball player, especially when Batth statistically keeps the ball better.

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You must go to a different Molineux or listen do a different radio station. All I ever hear at Molineux, WM, random clients discussing wolves, whoever, is “I’m not sold on Miranda” all because he fucked up against Cardiff really.

Can you please stop your “pass completion” stat or assists. It means fuck all. Peoples opinions on him being better on the ball will be related to his increased ability carrying the ball when he is the free man, playing riskier balls forward into the strikers, better first touch. None of this can be supported by stats, just observations and opinions. Whether this mild perceived improvement in ability translates to anything tangible, maybe not.

 

[slink]

I don't rate Batth "very highly" i simply want parity and fairness between how Miranda and Batth are judged and i don't think we get that from a lot of Wolves fans, i think Batth has given a lot of fans a bloody nose who had written him off and they are quick to criticise rather than compliment him.

Miranda is benefiting by being a new and "exotic" signing where his faults and mistakes aren't analysed as thoroughly as someone more established (such as Batth) this isn't just on here, it's people in the ground and on other forums.

By asking for all the chances that Miranda has created (or assists to assistors) with his expansive passing ability I'm asking for context, but i know other than *that* pass at Forest and a side footed strike into the side netting against Villa there will be nothing that proves Miranda is the fair better ball player, especially when Batth statistically keeps the ball better.

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You've got fairness. I've criticised Miranda where he deserves criticism but you just seem to be ignoring it. I've said he was poor with the ball against Preston and shouldn't have lost Smith for his first chance on Saturday but don't think it's fair criticising him for the goal and i've explained with football reason why. Batth lost Hugill for Preston's first goal but i don't see you saying anything about that or the fact that he then struggled against him for the next 30 minutes after Hugill had got nothing out of Miranda for 60 minutes. You don't seem to acknowledge that Batth struggled with Washington either so where is the fairness.

I don't need stats to back up whether Miranda is better than Batth on the ball, everyone's eyes can see it. Batth has a better pass completion but that's because he plays the ball to Coady or to Doherty with 5-10 yard passes 99% of the time. I don't have a problem with that because that's what he should do but that also means Miranda is a better ball playing centre back than he is because he can drive forward, he can play that pass like he did at Forest or Brentford, he can play those passes into Neves and Saiss and sometimes into Bonatini that Batth doesn't do.

That's why i think he's better and i actually think he's a better defender, if you don't agree fair enough but don't come spouting the unfair bullshit when it's not true. Batth has been so much better than last year and i was saying so to my mate on Saturday but i'm still going to criticise him when he struggles against a forward player like he has done in the last 2 Saturday games. He was excellent in the City game because he had to defend deep and just block and kick and that suits him which is fair enough, he could have given away a penalty too had the referee see him grab Aguero once or twice. He didn't so no harm done. Like i said earlier there was a centre half playing in that game that i think is better than both Miranda and Batth and that's Hause.

 

[Siggy]

I have to ask the question of EP if he regularly watches Wolves I am wondering if its just a bit of a wind up to be honest??

Edit - I remember having a constant circular argument about Henry some years back before I was "Siggy" similar about Craddock and being accused of being his Mom so its just a genuine question. Sometimes when you listen to local media and Tim it might have an impact on your view, I am interested to know if you have seen plenty of Wolves this season with and without Batth.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Well i will continue to persist with the pass completion thing because i was rather patronisingly told weeks ago that the sample size is too small.

Now when it's still the case that Batth's is better I'm asked to provide context, or just told naaa, stats are meaningless.

Miranda doesn't try anything anymore out of the ordinary than Batth with his passing, like Batth he either goes to Neves/Saiss Douglas, Jota or Coady. Batth goes to Neves/Saiss, Doc, Cav or Coady.

Miranda being a better distributor is a red herring as he either is being told not to be more expansive, or he isn't capable of it anyway.

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[slink]

You must go to a different Molineux or listen do a different radio station. All I ever hear at Molineux, WM, random clients discussing wolves, whoever, is “I’m not sold on Miranda” all because he fucked up against Cardiff really.

Can you please stop your “pass completion” stat or assists. It means fuck all. Peoples opinions on him being better on the ball will be related to his increased ability carrying the ball when he is the free man, playing riskier balls forward into the strikers, better first touch. None of this can be supported by stats, just observations and opinions. Whether this mild perceived improvement in ability translates to anything tangible, maybe not.

THIS!! It's all over twitter too. I was backing him up on Saturday on there because it's always him who seems to get criticised. The Preston game was the same, all i saw was criticism for Miranda but it wasn't because he was poor with the ball because he was it was for his defending when he was by far the best of the 3 centre backs when it came to defending. I would say he's been the defensive scapegoat this season so far rather than Danny.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I have to ask the question of EP if he regularly watches Wolves I am wondering if its just a bit of a wind up to be honest??

So now because my opinion differs from yours i don't watch games or it's a wind up?

Maybe the several others who would drop Miranda over Batth don't watch Wolves regularly or are on a wind up too?

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[Siggy]

Well i will continue to persist with the pass completion thing because i was rather patronisingly told weeks ago that the sample size is too small.

Now when it's still the case that Batth's is better I'm asked to provide context, or just told naaa, stats are meaningless.

Miranda doesn't try anything anymore out of the ordinary than Batth with his passing, like Batth he either goes to Neves/Saiss Douglas, Jota or Coady. Batth goes to Neves/Saiss, Doc, Cav or Coady.

Miranda being a better distributor is a red herring as he either is being told not to be more expansive, or he isn't capable of it anyway.

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Sorry thats not true have a look at the passmaps and you will see a major difference between DB and RM.

 

[Siggy]

So now because my opinion differs from yours i don't watch games or it's a wind up?

Maybe the several others who would drop Miranda over Batth don't watch Wolves regularly or are on a wind up too?

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I am just asking a simple question, there are plenty who contribute that don't go to games, and by the way there is nothing wrong with that at all.

And in case you want to know I have seen all but 2 games in all competitions.

 

[slink]

Well i will continue to persist with the pass completion thing because i was rather patronisingly told weeks ago that the sample size is too small.

Now when it's still the case that Batth's is better I'm asked to provide context, or just told naaa, stats are meaningless.

Miranda doesn't try anything anymore out of the ordinary than Batth with his passing, like Batth he either goes to Neves/Saiss Douglas, Jota or Coady. Batth goes to Neves/Saiss, Doc, Cav or Coady.

Miranda being a better distributor is a red herring as he either is being told not to be more expansive, or he isn't capable of it anyway.

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Right i'll bite on the stats. The % of pass completion is nothing without the context in which the passes were played. Miranda without a doubt definitely plays more passes forward which is going to lead to him giving the ball away more when DB's passes go to Coady or Doherty 99% of the time and they do.

Totally different players and positions but it backs the stats up, Gundogan has Man City's best pass completion % for a midfielder at something like 89% whereas KDB's pass completion is at 82% but i know who the better player is and i know who plays the better passes and therefore creates more. Now Miranda isn't KDB but like is aid he definitely plays more forward passes and expansive passes like the Forest one than DB does. If you don't agree then you aren't watching the same players and are just arguing for the sake of it. There's a lad who puts passing networks on after most Wolves games if not all, they prove that Miranda plays the ball forward more in to midfield and into the forward players. Take a look at those.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I am just asking a simple question, there are plenty who contribute that don't go to games, and by the way there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Then why bring it up?

I've been to 5 games this season and have watched all but 2 on a stream/sky.

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[Siggy]

Then why bring it up?

I've been to 5 games this season and have watched all but 2 on a stream/sky.

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The reason I ask is that local media and social media could very easily influence your view, if you have seen most of our games this season and still reach the same conclusion then it is quite surprising IMO.

Please don't take things the wrong way, if nothing else you have sparked quite a healthy debate IMO.