Coronavirus

[WolfMan]

Vaccinations to be compulsory too come February - I'm all for freedom of choice but when your actions impedes on the freedoms of others then I agree with state intervention

I really just don't understand the logic here. How does someone choosing not to have a vaccine impede the freedom of those who have?

 

[lemonjelly]

Just spoke with someone in a devolved government, he is expecting a Christmas lockdown if things continue as is.

in their devolved area, or UK wide?

 

[lemonjelly]

I really just don't understand the logic here. How does someone choosing not to have a vaccine impede the freedom of those who have?

it generates a risk to the rest of the population. especially with an extremely contagious illness/disease.
Countries with over 80% of the population are having to re-introduce measures currently. That's a significantly higher proportion of the population than we have, and they still are struggling to keep things under control.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

it generates a risk to the rest of the population. especially with an extremely contagious illness/disease.
Countries with over 80% of the population are having to re-introduce measures currently. That's a significantly higher proportion of the population than we have, and they still are struggling to keep things under control.

How though? I'm double jabbed, so i'm far safer than i was before i was double jabbed.

I can still pass the disease on whether i have been jabbed or not though?

If people want to run the risk of not getting vaccinated and therefore suffering worse symptoms, then that's their choice, just like it's the choice of a Jehovah's Witness not to have a blood transfusion to save their life, no one forces them.

 

[Tredman]

I really just don't understand the logic here. How does someone choosing not to have a vaccine impede the freedom of those who have?

Means if those who are vaccinated get seriously ill they are unable to access timely healthcare as the NHS is overwhelmed by looking after the ignorant.

 

[Tredman]

in their devolved area, or UK wide?

Just there, but they usually go hand-in-hand. Said it will depend on whether case rates stay broadly flat or increase as the temperature decreases.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Means if those who are vaccinated get seriously ill they are unable to access timely healthcare as the NHS is overwhelmed by looking after the ignorant.

But there are thousands of different examples where we do allow people to effectively self harm..

*We don't stop people drinking in case they have a negative impact on the NHS.

*We don't ban smoking

*We don't stop fat people eating more and more and more.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

I really just don't understand the logic here. How does someone choosing not to have a vaccine impede the freedom of those who have?

By virtue of those without the vaccination clog up the hospitals through getting ill, where as the vaccinated tend not to get so ill.

Although we live with certain personal freedoms, those freedoms come with obligations.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

The NHS can’t cope with a surge in Covid cases needing hospital treatment and continue to provide all its other services. Personally I’d prioritise the other services over treating people who have chosen not to have a vaccine that would almost certainly reduce the severity of COVID even if it wouldn’t prevent it altogether. Not sure if there’s any way of making such choices but surely there comes a point where people need to take some responsibility for their actions or lack of them.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

But there are thousands of different examples where we do allow people to effectively self harm..

*We don't stop people drinking in case they have a negative impact on the NHS.

*We don't ban smoking

*We don't stop fat people eating more and more and more.

We generate revenue from selling alcohol, moderate drinking doesn't end in hospitals being over loaded with infectious disease. We have also brought about standard tax rates for alcohol content

We have effectively banned smoking through pricing it out by over taxing it to change peoples behaviour. We have also further removed the freedom to smoke it almost every public space and indeed to sell them freely or advertise

The issue of weight is being addressed with sugar tax etc, but it is difficult to tax food (ie a necessity for life) without disadvantaging those who are the most needy in society. The shortening of life through carrying excessive weight may reduce the overall cost of that person in the Health service in the long run, who knows.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

But there are thousands of different examples where we do allow people to effectively self harm..

*We don't stop people drinking in case they have a negative impact on the NHS.

*We don't ban smoking

*We don't stop fat people eating more and more and more.

Such examples don’t overwhelm the NHS in the same way COVID patients may soon. The NHS can plan long term for the likely impact

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

We generate revenue from selling alcohol, moderate drinking doesn't end in hospitals being over loaded with infectious disease. We have also brought about standard tax rates for alcohol content

We have effectively banned smoking through pricing it out by over taxing it to change peoples behaviour. We have also further removed the freedom to smoke it almost every public space and indeed to sell them freely or advertise

The issue of weight is being addressed with sugar tax etc, but it is difficult to tax food (ie a necessity for life) without disadvantaging those who are the most needy in society. The shortening of life through carrying excessive weight may reduce the overall cost of that person in the Health service in the long run, who knows.

Fair points, definitely.

The difference is though we haven't told people they can't travel if they are smokers or drinkers have we? They are doing seriously long term damage to themselves and they will need to rely on the NHS at some point.

Also i wouldn't say we have banned smoking through pricing, there are still around 7 million people in the UK that smoke!

Obesity is on the rise, 40% of 11 year olds are obese, the long term effect on the NHS there is incalculable.

Whilst my comparisons don't align perfectly with covid vaccinations, i have a point, no?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

The shortening of life through carrying excessive weight may reduce the overall cost of that person in the Health service in the long run, who knows.

Does the same not apply to those that don't get vaccinated? They're more likely to die before their time.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Does the same not apply to those that don't get vaccinated? They're more likely to die before their time.

Frankly that’s on them. Darwinism! My issue is that when there are thousands of them in hospitals resulting in treatment of diseases such as cancer being delayed to the point it ceases to be treatable choices have to be made.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Frankly that’s on them. Darwinism! My issue is that when there are thousands of them in hospitals resulting in treatment of diseases such as cancer being delayed to the point it ceases to be treatable choices have to be made.

But there are thousands of people who have cancer because they smoke!

Why aren't we banning those people from traveling, restaurants or pubs?

The money generated from it is irrelevant if your argument is all about delays of treatment, those cancerous smokers are just as much to blame as people who refuse to be jabbed.

 

[WolfMan]

Means if those who are vaccinated get seriously ill they are unable to access timely healthcare as the NHS is overwhelmed by looking after the ignorant.

Yes I get that - but having access to timely healthcare doesn't equate freedom does it?

There are plenty of people in the world who don't have access to any healthcare that are free. It's a conflation of two points.

 

[Tony Towner]

But there are thousands of people who have cancer because they smoke!

Not all at the same time. They also can't pass on their cancer, passive smoking being negligible since the indoor ban or alcoholism to others. I wouldn't make it compulsory, I have no issue with freedom of choice, but with that freedom comes consequence

 

[Wilf Wolf]

But there are thousands of people who have cancer because they smoke!

As I said above the NHS has known this for decades and been able to predict fairly well what pressures they exert. Covid is unprecedented and something has to give. It’s not something that can be sorted by increased funding, there simply are a finite number of beds and health workers and my view is individual responsibility means people should get vaccinated and if they chose not to I have little sympathy. With 80% of the population vaccinated it is pretty clear the risks are incredibly low, far lower than getting Covid.

 

[WolfMan]

By virtue of those without the vaccination clog up the hospitals through getting ill, where as the vaccinated tend not to get so ill.

Although we live with certain personal freedoms, those freedoms come with obligations.

The big obvious one here, as EP has said, is people being overweight.

The pressure obese and overweight people put on the NHS with their associated ailments is absolutely huge. Do they have an obligation not to eat so much, I'm not overweight, why are their choices impacting on my freedom to get timely healthcare?

Should we ban fat people from eating fast food? Or exclude them from society altogether? After all, the evidence is out there for people to see how damaging to health their health it is, yet they carry on regardless!

 

[WolfMan]

We generate revenue from selling alcohol, moderate drinking doesn't end in hospitals being over loaded with infectious disease. We have also brought about standard tax rates for alcohol content

We have effectively banned smoking through pricing it out by over taxing it to change peoples behaviour. We have also further removed the freedom to smoke it almost every public space and indeed to sell them freely or advertise

The issue of weight is being addressed with sugar tax etc, but it is difficult to tax food (ie a necessity for life) without disadvantaging those who are the most needy in society. The shortening of life through carrying excessive weight may reduce the overall cost of that person in the Health service in the long run, who knows.

One million admissions linked to obesity in 2019/20 new data reveals - NHS England Digital

There were more than one million admission to NHS hospitals in 2019/20 where obesity was a factor, according to new figures1 published by NHS Digital today.

digital.nhs.uk

Obesity hospital admissions make covid hospital admissions seem like a drop in the ocean. And that's every single year.