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Coronavirus

Papper said:
My post was updated after you replied that gives information on urbanisation and density in the capital cities.
Click to expand...

Sweden largest populated cities (over 100,000)

Stockholm – 1,515,017
Gothenburg – 599,011
Malmö – 316,588
Uppsala – 160,462
Upplands Väsby and Sollentuna urban areasv – 144,826
Västerås – 122,953
Örebro – 120,650
Linköping – 111,267
Helsingborg – 109,869

UK largest populated areas (over 100,000)

London 7,556,900, Birmingham 984,333, Liverpool 864,122, Nottingham 729,977, Sheffield 685,368, Bristol 617,280,

Glasgow 591,620, Leicester 508,916, Edinburgh 464,990, Leeds 455,123, Cardiff 447,287, Manchester 395,515, Stoke-on-Trent 372,775,

Coventry 359,262, Sunderland 335,415, Birkenhead 325,264, Islington 319,143, Reading 318,014, Kingston upon Hull 314,018,

Preston 313,332, Swansea 300,352, Bradford 299,310, Southend-on-Sea 295,310, Belfast 274,770, Derby 270,468,

Plymouth 260,203, Luton 258,018, Wolverhampton 252,791, City of Westminster 247,614, Southampton 246,201, Blackpool 239,409,

Milton Keynes 229,941, Bexley 228,000, Northampton 215,963, Archway 215,667, Norwich 213,166, Dudley 199,059,

Aberdeen 196,670, Portsmouth 194,150, Newcastle upon Tyne 192,382, Sutton 187,600, Swindon 185,609, Crawley 180,508,

Ipswich 178,835, Wigan 175,405, Croydon 173,314, Walsall 172,141, Mansfield 171,958, Oxford 171,380, Warrington 165,456,

Slough 163,777, Bournemouth 163,600, Peterborough 163,379, Cambridge 158,434, Doncaster 158,141, York 153,717, Poole 150,092,

Gloucester 150,053, Burnley 149,422, Huddersfield 149,017, Telford 147,980, Dundee 147,710, Blackburn 146,521, Basildon 144,859,

Middlesbrough 142,707, Bolton 141,331, Stockport 139,052, Brighton 139,001, West Bromwich 135,618, Grimsby 134,160, Hastings 133,422,

High Wycombe 133,204, Watford 125,707, Saint Peters 125,370, Burton upon Trent 122,199, Colchester 121,859, Eastbourne 118,219,

Exeter 117,763, Rotherham 117,618, Cheltenham 116,447, Lincoln 114,879, Chesterfield 113,057, Chelmsford 111,511,

Mendip 110,000, Dagenham 108,368, Basingstoke 107,642, Maidstone 107,627, Sutton Coldfield 107,030, Bedford 106,940,

Oldham 104,782, Enfield Town 103,970, Woking 103,932, St Helens 102,555, Worcester 101,659, Gillingham 101,187, Becontree 100,000

Again, what point are you trying to make?

Should we not have had a lockdown due to the similar numbers in Sweden? Do you not think that with 10 times as many areas with over 100,000 population that would have led to a much higher UK infection rate?

Has Ferguson (in your eyes) got it wrong again?
 
darlowolf64 said:
Sweden largest populated cities (over 100,000)

Stockholm – 1,515,017
Gothenburg – 599,011
Malmö – 316,588
Uppsala – 160,462
Upplands Väsby and Sollentuna urban areasv – 144,826
Västerås – 122,953
Örebro – 120,650
Linköping – 111,267
Helsingborg – 109,869

UK largest populated areas (over 100,000)

London 7,556,900, Birmingham 984,333, Liverpool 864,122, Nottingham 729,977, Sheffield 685,368, Bristol 617,280,

Glasgow 591,620, Leicester 508,916, Edinburgh 464,990, Leeds 455,123, Cardiff 447,287, Manchester 395,515, Stoke-on-Trent 372,775,

Coventry 359,262, Sunderland 335,415, Birkenhead 325,264, Islington 319,143, Reading 318,014, Kingston upon Hull 314,018,

Preston 313,332, Swansea 300,352, Bradford 299,310, Southend-on-Sea 295,310, Belfast 274,770, Derby 270,468,

Plymouth 260,203, Luton 258,018, Wolverhampton 252,791, City of Westminster 247,614, Southampton 246,201, Blackpool 239,409,

Milton Keynes 229,941, Bexley 228,000, Northampton 215,963, Archway 215,667, Norwich 213,166, Dudley 199,059,

Aberdeen 196,670, Portsmouth 194,150, Newcastle upon Tyne 192,382, Sutton 187,600, Swindon 185,609, Crawley 180,508,

Ipswich 178,835, Wigan 175,405, Croydon 173,314, Walsall 172,141, Mansfield 171,958, Oxford 171,380, Warrington 165,456,

Slough 163,777, Bournemouth 163,600, Peterborough 163,379, Cambridge 158,434, Doncaster 158,141, York 153,717, Poole 150,092,

Gloucester 150,053, Burnley 149,422, Huddersfield 149,017, Telford 147,980, Dundee 147,710, Blackburn 146,521, Basildon 144,859,

Middlesbrough 142,707, Bolton 141,331, Stockport 139,052, Brighton 139,001, West Bromwich 135,618, Grimsby 134,160, Hastings 133,422,

High Wycombe 133,204, Watford 125,707, Saint Peters 125,370, Burton upon Trent 122,199, Colchester 121,859, Eastbourne 118,219,

Exeter 117,763, Rotherham 117,618, Cheltenham 116,447, Lincoln 114,879, Chesterfield 113,057, Chelmsford 111,511,

Mendip 110,000, Dagenham 108,368, Basingstoke 107,642, Maidstone 107,627, Sutton Coldfield 107,030, Bedford 106,940,

Oldham 104,782, Enfield Town 103,970, Woking 103,932, St Helens 102,555, Worcester 101,659, Gillingham 101,187, Becontree 100,000

Again, what point are you trying to make?

Should we not have had a lockdown due to the similar numbers in Sweden? Do you not think that with 10 times as many areas with over 100,000 population that would have led to a much higher UK infection rate?

Has Ferguson (in your eyes) got it wrong again?
Click to expand...

I am merely comparing mortality rates in relation to overall urbanisation of each country and the density of the Capital cities. Dividing the size of the country by total population may be misleading. To make a point I would need to know mortality rates per city/region in Sweden and compare to the UK (in relation to densities) In respect of Ferguson I cannot say he has got it wrong or right but his track record suggests he may not have been the best person to ask in the first place.
 
Papper said:
Care homes have been in lockdown since mid-march and residents are stll dying in high numbers. This suggests recent infections are as a result of care workers not being supplied and/or using the required PPE. I would have thought all hospitals let alone care homes would have had the required PPE on hand in readiness given Exercise Cygnus that occured in 2016. I don't know about harvesting it smacks of gross negligence ( or worse ) on behalf of whoever was tasked with risk managing following that exercise because lives have been lost needlessly. It stinks, considering many of them (who have paid tax all their life) have to sell houses to pay for their care.
Click to expand...

Professor Coker goes to great lengths to point out that 'Harvesting' is a term that epidemiologists use, and no one else because the word has darker connotations: those of sacrifice, reaping, culling, and that generally, it is viewed as a tragic, unfortunate, but largely unpreventable consequence of natural events, and that the concept of harvesting is restricted to epidemiological circles.

I think part of the point he is making, is that 'if' 'the science' advice was to let the virus spread the caveat was that islands of people on Care Homes must be created and must be a priority, as Matt Hancock (Posted at 17:43 28 Apr17:43 28 Apr Hancock asked to apologise for social care decisions) has said they were.

Islands of elderly and vulnerable people were not created and residents were not protected. Care homes should have been monitored, supplied with adequate PPE, testing rolled out in care homes and there should have been a reduction in the exposure of the residents to visitors and other carers. None of which happened and now a yet untold number of care home residents have died because of it.

There were rumours circulating at the time of the about face that any advice Ferguson may, or may not have been giving had been previously disregarded because of his previous predictions that had been avoided. When it transpired that modelling showed if you keep this up, half a million may die, and that conclusion placed in front of the Prime Minister, it looks very much like someone realised this may piss a lot of people off, they'd become more than a little unpopular, populaity being paramount, panic set in, and we were locked down.

Professor Coker believes that 'If herd immunity was the initial strategy outlined by advisers, they would have known that harvesting older people could not be part of the equation.' and that 'This isn’t about science or politics – it’s a simple question of humanity. If the government’s strategy was to allow the virus to spread through the wider population, albeit at a slowed pace, residents in nursing homes would need to be protected.'

The Prime Minister would have known this had he attended the initial COBRA meetings and not instead, been concentrating on settling his divorce and rescuing his relationship with his now pregnant lover instead. It is well known that he doesn't like too much detail in the reports he receives, maybe that little detail was left out, maybe he chose to ignore it, maybe whoever he was listening to at the time, which certainly wasn't COBRA, believed that the deaths of so many of the frailest in society was acceptable, no matter how inhumane and it was just another 'difficult decision' that had to be made.

Politicians seem very keen at the moment to avoid any kind of real scrutiny until the inevitable Public Inquiry happens and are desperately clinging to the "we are only doing what 'the science 'told us to do" line which was also used by many at the Nuremberg trials to try and absolve themselves of any blame for the inhumane actions they had been willing to participate in.' I was only following orders'. 'The science' is now going to great pains to try and point out the actions of the last few months are not what they advised at all. I think it's fair to say that one group is lying. By the time we find out who though, it will be too late to save the tens of thousands of lives that have been lost as a result.

As for Exercise Cygnus , it's conclusion was " “The UK’s preparedness and response, in terms of its plans, policies and capability, is currently not sufficient to cope with the extreme demands of a severe pandemic that will have a nationwide impact across all sectors,”.

Jeremy Hunt the then Health Secretary has been very vocal in stating he has had no issues with the full details of Exercise Cygnus being released to the public, which hints at the fact he at least attempted to get it's recommendations implemented, which again, hints at the fact he was overruled and feels the guilt for what has ensued as a result of it not being done lies elsewhere.

Time will tell. Time that the living have got to get their excuses ready, time that the dead do not.
 
Last edited:
RE: Sweden, worth noting that mobility tracking data has shown that even though they have "no lockdown", for several weeks the population has been about on a par as mobile as many other countries under lockdown like the UK - people have taken it into their own hands, to an extent.
 
The Swedes trusted their people. How dense the population is may have some bearing on how many people live, how dense the population is certainly influences how many people die.
 
And in we have a lot of very dense people in this country...
 
Rui_CostCo said:
As someone previously said, their population is far less dense than ours
Click to expand...

It really isn't Rui. Nearly a quarter of their population live in density ( people per sq km ) akin to a quarter of the UK. They are more urbanised than us and half of their deaths have occured in Stockholm.

Malmo - 5000 people per sq km
Stockholm - 4800 people per sq km
Gothenburg - 1300 people per sq km
 
proslo said:
RE: Sweden, worth noting that mobility tracking data has shown that even though they have "no lockdown", for several weeks the population has been about on a par as mobile as many other countries under lockdown like the UK - people have taken it into their own hands, to an extent.
Click to expand...

Fair enough but if you take care home deaths out of the equation (which were easy to control and should have been controlled) the lockdown appears to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut which has cost upwards of £300 Billion (which they had to borrow). How much did the Swedes borrow and lumber on their taxpayers ?
 
Papper said:
It really isn't Rui. Nearly a quarter of their population live in density ( people per sq km ) akin to a quarter of the UK. They are more urbanised than us and half of their deaths have occured in Stockholm.

Malmo - 5000 people per sq km
Stockholm - 4800 people per sq km
Gothenburg - 1300 people per sq km
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to the adjective, our population is considerably more stupid than the Swedes
 
THat appears to be another blame the NHS story.

On the second point Wesminster Bridge and Cosham and countless other places leads me to disagree
 
AndyWolves said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-care-homes-despite-KNOWING-coronavirus.html

I know this is the daily mail but where did this fucking ridiculous idea come from.

It blows away anything Joe public can do by not isolating, this is sending the covid19 virus directly into the last place we want it.

For me, this is manslaughter if not bordering on murder
Click to expand...
Was an outbreak last week in the home my nan lived in, apparently they'd all been pretty much in solitary confinement for a weeks before and no visitors for weeks before that. So perhaps something like that story is what introduced it, no idea if any other residents had been into hospital, or could only have been through a member of staff.

Though my other Nan who still lives at home has been into hospital for two separate instances still this all kicked off and come away clean both times, tested at least 5 times across the two visits from what I was told.
 
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