Wolves 0-2 Brentford: Verdict Thread

[PuntsWolf]

I don't think too much slack was given to the first 3 games, we played well and deserved more than we got in all 3 games but errors at both ends let us and Bruno down. I don't think you can hold that against Bruno yet but some seem very keen to but he deserves at least another 5 games to see what he can get out of this squad.

We did and I’m not blaming Bruno. I just think “we we’re only going to get zero points from the first 3” is wrong, and it’s wrong to just accept it when it happens. Not saying you said that, but Andy pretty much did.

It isn't a relegation level squad, proved by 4 of the 5 games and it is very fine margins. Had Adama scored one of his two one on ones or Saiss scored against United we wouldn't be having these discussions, yet here we are because we lost our heads against Brentford for a spell talking about relegation and being better than other sides etc. The argument that some team beat some other team is absolute bollocks too, just for example... (appreciate that's not a point you've made)

I agree, but Adama misses these chances. That’s what he’s always done. Him missing them isn’t bad luck, it’s pretty much normal. Him scoring is seen as more surprise rather than expectation

I think when it comes to Lage i think we can criticise decisions he makes in terms of tactics, subs etc but it's very harsh that he seems to be getting some criticism because we've missed sitters in every game so far. He's got a real chance to get some of the players who have been on the bench the last few games in to the 11 for the weekend particularly at the back and hopefully the mistakes will go but when it comes to the forward players i don't think he has a clinical player at his disposal and that's not something he can really work on.

I think my point mainly is that while it's obvious we need to start picking up points it's been a very quick turnaround in a week to the thinking about the team or some can't wait to put some digs in when i would say there isn't much to criticise Bruno with at the moment when you break all the games down and don't just look at it in terms of results. Understand it's a results based business but we need to have open minds for a while imo.

Agreed. I have been very pro Bruno and still am. However the “tactics” on Saturday were a massive worry. It was Sunday league stuff. But he has the chance to fix it and just needs to make the big calls in the next 2-3 weeks, and I hope he has the balls to do it. But if he doesn’t and we’re still not scoring and losing, then he’s in a lot of trouble and so are we. I’m giving him that benefit of the doubt though.

 

[Tredman]

Saturday really had echoes of QPR 0-3 under Mick and Barnsley 0-4 under Zenga. People were largely positive about the start we'd made and then bang, get absolutely ruined by a team everyone expected us to beat. Never recovered either.

On a brighter note I felt it was a little like the Cardiff home match in Nuno's first season too.

 

[slink]

It's not a case of "can't wait to put digs in", we have made an objectively shit start and we were awful on Saturday.

Ok then, why is our entire gameplan based on crossing the ball when we have one (ONE) player in the entire starting XI who might score from one of those from open play, and he hasn't looked too flash at it so far?

We've made a shit start points wise yes but overall the performances have been far from shit. The first 25 minutes wasn't shit on Saturday either, it went to shit from then but that came from the penalty being given away and them losing their heads completely.

I wouldn't say our entire game plan is based on crossing either, a lot of the crosses we put in are pull backs etc but for me we've not really got anyone picking people out. When they have done, those who have got there have rushed, scuffed chances etc or we've actually scored from them. We are still missing that player from midfield that can link the play better in open play but looked to do that more when Hwang and Podence came on at Watford and possibly will be able to do so if he goes to a back 4. It will be really interesting to see if we do that.

Without crosses, our best chances in both the Leicester and Spurs games came from through balls and so did our best 2 chances at Watford before we scored. When i look at chances created from crosses even though we've got Raul not quite at it we've had some glorious chances, Saiss, Raul in the last 2 games, Marcal missing in the Watford game before Hwang put it in, Trincao and Podence getting in each others way on Saturday and then running under the ball.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Tbf I think that's only really been the case against Brentford, when we collectively lost our shit and reverted back to last season, where we definitely only had 'hopeful cross' or 'hopeful long shot' as the two arrows to our bow

I dunno, we're still heavily biased in that respect. We don't play through the lines very much at all, very rare anyone runs beyond Raul too.

Even worse when Trincao plays on the left, please never do that again.

The thing is superficially it looks like we're on top and we're bound to come out on top soon. In reality, who seriously thinks we will? We get in behind teams quite effectively but the expectation of us actually scoring is seriously low. We're no good at cutting the ball back effectively, there aren't any runners to arrive late anyway, our wingbacks can't cross and aerial crosses are for Raul and Raul only.

 

[AndyWolves]

On paper we would've been expected to beat Brentford, which is what your argument is based on isn't it?

I've already said criticism for losing against Brentford is completely understandable and fair

 

[From Distant Shores]

According to some so-called statistical analysis on the BBC recently, teams getting 11 or 12 points from the first 10 games have a 83% survival rate. Teams with 8 to 10 points have a 53% survival rate and teams with 7 points or less have a 12% survival rate.

That suggests we need to get at least 8 points in the next five games to avoid being in a relegation fight from then on.

The BBC article - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/58148143

 

[slink]

We did and I’m not blaming Bruno. I just think “we we’re only going to get zero points from the first 3” is wrong, and it’s wrong to just accept it when it happens. Not saying you said that, but Andy pretty much did.

I agree we shouldn't just write games off and i mean any game. We should be looking to pick up 3 points from every game, that's the whole point of football. The next 2 games are massive i can 100% agree with because we need wins and points to make up for the lack of finishing from the first 3 games.

I agree, but Adama misses these chances. That’s what he’s always done. Him missing them isn’t bad luck, it’s pretty much normal. Him scoring is seen as more surprise rather than expectation

I don't know whether it is expected him to miss, i expect him to miss when he shoots from the edge of the box most times but can't remember many other times he's been 1-on-1 other than City away and he finished both of them.

Agreed. I have been very pro Bruno and still am. However the “tactics” on Saturday were a massive worry. It was Sunday league stuff. But he has the chance to fix it and just needs to make the big calls in the next 2-3 weeks, and I hope he has the balls to do it. But if he doesn’t and we’re still not scoring and losing, then he’s in a lot of trouble and so are we. I’m giving him that benefit of the doubt though.

The last bit was a bit different but i thought he was just hoping that we could over load with 2 wide players in attacking areas rather than a full back and at times it looked like it was working with Podence and Hwang but again the final ball wasn't good enough or the players in the box fucked it up. It definitely wasn't what i would have done but it did feel like a manager who hasn't quite got what he wants.

 

[From Distant Shores]

We're no good at cutting the ball back effectively, there aren't any runners to arrive late anyway,

I think this is the main reason that we rarely look like scoring. It sometimes seems that there are mental boundaries, the front 3 must be in front of the middle four who must be in front of the back three. The two times that Semedo got in front of the front three we carved out two of our best chances against Watford. I can't remembering any of the midfield getting a head of the front three (in any meaningful way) against Brentford.

 

[AndyWolves]

Nope, I don't give a shit about the League Cup.

And beating a team who are bottom of the Championship, big wow. Might come in handy next year I suppose

If you're going to include games we should lose, then you should also include games we should win.

Otherwise it looks like a dogpile on the manager after one poor performance.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Why "should we lose" to Leicester?

They've lost 3 out of 5 this season and lost 5 of their final 9 last season. It's nearly as bad a record as ours.

We've beaten or drawn with Man Utd loads since we got promoted.

Spurs aren't any good.

We don't write off games, we're not Norwich.

 

[AndyWolves]

FWIW there's a difference between wanting to win and expecting to win.

If folk are expecting to beat better teams then you'll always be disappointed.

Of course I wanted us to beat teams like man United, Leicester etc. Was I surprised or think it out the ordinary when we didn't, no.

 

[From Distant Shores]

I don't know whether it is expected him to miss, i expect him to miss when he shoots from the edge of the box most times but can't remember many other times he's been 1-on-1 other than City away and he finished both of them.

One against Leicester and one against Spurs.

 

[AndyWolves]

Why "should we lose" to Leicester?

They've lost 3 out of 5 this season and lost 5 of their final 9 last season. It's nearly as bad a record as ours.

We've beaten or drawn with Man Utd loads since we got promoted.

Spurs aren't any good.

We don't write off games, we're not Norwich.

We've been shit for most of last season and had a poor transfer window. Why on earth would we expect us to beat them?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I didn't say I expected to win.

I said we don't write off games and shrug it off when we lose and don't score, which is what happened.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

I'm in the 'it felt like Barnsley at home' camp.

The Cardiff game was a Warnock masterclass and could see the big lumps knocking the snot out of our players, Barnsley was a bang average team making us look awful. We looked awful on Saturday, and Brentford looked average. This attacking without scoring is not a long term basis for success.

 

[AndyWolves]

I didn't say I expected to win.

I said we don't write off games and shrug it off when we lose and don't score, which is what happened.

But that's an odd way to think, something I expected to happen then happened because Leicester are better than we are.

I can't really complain or get upset about an individual game when things which seem likely, then happen.

You just have to look at Leicesters team and then think how many of ours would get in Leicesters team, not many at all.

 

[Tony Towner]

Forest in the Championship under Nuno was the one it reminded me of. 2-0 down and try to get back into it by unloading every attacking player from the bench without any real gameplan on how that was going to happen

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

FWIW I think all of these are objectively better than us at the moment, in terms of both first XI and squad (probably manager too):

Man City
Man Utd
Chelsea
Liverpool
Leicester
Tottenham
Aston Villa
Everton
West Ham

But if you're going down the slightly perverse road of writing these games off and 0 points is fine so long as we sort of entertain the fans, that leaves you 20 games to get yourself 40 points.

Fancy us getting 2 points a game from the other lot? I don't.

And is 40 points alright? Not really. That's shit.

That's why it's a mindset that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Johnny75]

I think this is the main reason that we rarely look like scoring. It sometimes seems that there are mental boundaries, the front 3 must be in front of the middle four who must be in front of the back three. The two times that Semedo got in front of the front three we carved out two of our best chances against Watford. I can't remembering any of the midfield getting a head of the front three (in any meaningful way) against Brentford.

Certainly in the first 3 games our running off the ball and more central attacking was evident and thoroughly enjoyable to watch. Saturday was like watching Nunoball at its worst. There was none of that movement we'd seen in the first 3 games. It was total regression.

The need to try and get crosses in on Saturday was bizarre. None of the Brentord back 3 are particularly mobile and we didn't run at them at all.. But for some reason we wanted to give it to a winger who couldn't cross to get crosses into a space where we'd put players who can't head the ball.

Adama made some great runs in the first few games, but he was back to standing still and waiting for the ball again on Saturday and it was just shit to watch. Absolute shit.

 

[Tony Towner]

But that's an odd way to think, something I expected to happen then happened because Leicester are better than we are.

I can't really complain or get upset about an individual game when things which seem likely, then happen.

You just have to look at Leicesters team and then think how many of ours would get in Leicesters team, not many at all.

If that's your attitude then you should be bloody livid after Saturday then because you are piling so much pressure on games like that