The Blame Game

[Johnny75]

Dean was correct

"the Law designates another position (see Laws 3, 11, 12)
The ball:
must be stationary and the kicker must not touch the ball again until it has touched another player
is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves except for a free kick to the defending team in their penalty area where the ball is in play when it is kicked directly out of the penalty area"

Doesn't that say the ball needs to leave the penalty area before the ball is in play? Didn't Aldeweireld touch the ball before it left the penalty area?

 

[darlowolf64]

Doesn't that say the ball needs to leave the penalty area before the ball is in play? Didn't Aldeweireld touch the ball before it left the penalty area?

The ball:
must be stationary and the kicker must not touch the ball again until it has touched another player
is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves except for a free kick to the defending team in their penalty area where the ball is in play when it is kicked directly out of the penalty area

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I thought it had to go out of the area same as a goal kick. That's why when a keeper gets fouled you never see a short free kick. I am sure it was covered when I did my refs course but that was 20 years ago! Lots happened since then!

The other odd one was a defending throw in. If it's thrown into the goal without touching anyone it's a corner!

Is that still the same?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yes - I think so. You definitely can't score directly from a throw. Not sure whether it is the goal kick you say or a re-taken throw, but it definitely isn't a goal.

 

[Johnny75]

I thought it had to go out of the area same as a goal kick. That's why when a keeper gets fouled you never see a short free kick. I am sure it was covered when I did my refs course but that was 20 years ago! Lots happened since then!

The other odd one was a defending throw in. If it's thrown into the goal without touching anyone it's a corner!

Is that still the same?

You're right. It was the giving of the free kick I got wrong. I've watched it again and Lloris takes the kick directly and humps it long to Kane. (I'm sure Lycan also said this in the pub afterwards).

 

[Tony Towner]

Just seen the goals for the first time since the game. The second is an interesting one as it shows how we were planning to defend the wide ball and how one half arsed effort concedes a really soft goal. As the ball goes wide to Trippier, both Coady and Bennett signal for Doherty to come in. Coady passes Kane onto Bennett which we've seen him do the like of before and Bennett passes Moura on to Doherty, but instead of sprinting to pick up the man he jogs, he then only sprints when the ball is in the air and his man has a free header 5 yards out. That ones on him and was the Doherty of 3 years ago.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Just seen the goals for the first time since the game. The second is an interesting one as it shows how we were planning to defend the wide ball and how one half arsed effort concedes a really soft goal. As the ball goes wide to Trippier, both Coady and Bennett signal for Doherty to come in. Coady passes Kane onto Bennett which we've seen him do the like of before and Bennett passes Moura on to Doherty, but instead of sprinting to pick up the man he jogs, he then only sprints when the ball is in the air and his man has a free header 5 yards out. That ones on him and was the Doherty of 3 years ago.

No way Doherty is the main blame in that situation.

The clusterfuck starts well before Trippier gets the ball with Lamela being completely unmarked on the edge of the box, as soon as he makes the run into the box there's an overload and they never sort themselves out to deal with it, worst case it should be man for man with Boly/Coady/Bennett up against Lamela/Kane/Moura respectively but Boly doesn't get near Lamela, Coady drifts to the near post and picks up no-one which leaves Bennett trying to cover Kane and disregarding Moura. Doherty has too much ground to make up in too little time to get in to the back post and make a difference, it was only two passes before Trippier put the ball in that the play was coming down the opposite side of the pitch which meant Doherty would've been dragged out there and so couldn't be tucked in.

It's shit defending all round.

 

[Tony Towner]

No way Doherty is the main blame in that situation.

The cluster$#@! starts well before Trippier gets the ball with Lamela being completely unmarked on the edge of the box, as soon as he makes the run into the box there's an overload and they never sort themselves out to deal with it, worst case it should be man for man with Boly/Coady/Bennett up against Lamela/Kane/Moura respectively but Boly doesn't get near Lamela, Coady drifts to the near post and picks up no-one which leaves Bennett trying to cover Kane and disregarding Moura. Doherty has too much ground to make up in too little time to get in to the back post and make a difference, it was only two passes before Trippier put the ball in that the play was coming down the opposite side of the pitch which meant Doherty would've been dragged out there and so couldn't be tucked in.

It's $#@! defending all round.

That's not true though. I've watched the goal this morning and paused at very points, you can see the hand signals of both Coady and Bennett who both do what is expected of them eg it's a cross into the box so Coady passes Kane onto Bennett. Doherty gets there if he sprints, he doesn't, his first movement is a jog.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

That's not true though. I've watched the goal this morning and paused at very points, you can see the hand signals of both Coady and Bennett who both do what is expected of them eg it's a cross into the box so Coady passes Kane onto Bennett. Doherty gets there if he sprints, he doesn't, his first movement is a jog.

Which part isn't true?

Just because they gesture for him to tuck in doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, people make mistakes. I don't see Doherty as being in a position to relieve the overload, they're better set to try and ride it out man for man hoping that no-one loses their individual battle, there's only Kane v Coady that's potentially a mismatch in Spurs' favour for an aerial duel if everyone is picking up their man. It's far more risky to try and jumble that around at short notice and bring someone in from the far flank to cover and as happened it was a disorganised mess with no-one really properly marked and a free header results in a goal.

 

[Tony Towner]

Three pictures here:
The first is where Doherty is when the centre halves call him over, the second is where he is when the cross comes in, because he's only jogged, the third where he is at the point of the header. He sprints rather than jogs in the first instance and he gets there

 

[Johnny75]

Doherty certainly lacks awareness. I think I'd be dropping him for Jonny on Sunday.

 

[machin05]

You can tell it's Doc's fault as he tries to blame Bennett after the goal goes in. Classic Doc deflection.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

First picture everyone is marking, good stuff. They might be calling Doherty but they don't actually need him and if anything Moutinho is the closest spare man that could come in a provide an extra body.

Second picture Doherty has started tucking in, Moutinho has took about 3 steps, Neves lost Son and Boly has come to the near post leaving Lamela free.

Third picture Coady has been attracted to Lamela as he was allowed to run off Boly, Bennett caught in no mans land between Kane and Moura where he's either being beaten to the ball by the former or having it drop over his head to the latter and you've got the trio of Moutinho, Neves and Cavaleiro just milling about on the edge of the box letting Son go wherever he wants to pick up the pieces.

Could Doherty do more? Sure he could. Would I say I expect a wingback to be marking someone back inside his own six yard box? Probably not. There are a lot of errors in the defending of that passage of play, Doherty's role only comes in right at the end where he could potentially cover at the last minute and everything else would be ignored but Moutinho and Cavaleiro do absolutely nothing in that whole passage, Jonny does very little above that just standing really narrow until the goes to Trippier, Neves makes an attempt to press Son before he plays it out wide but then completely ignores him as he runs into the box afterward. Ideally I wouldn't want to have my back three man for man very often but there are times when it will and they have to take responsibility, pick up their men and win their individual battles, Boly didn't engage with his, Coady got dragged into the wrong one as a result and Bennett got caught between the two remaining men.

Be interesting to see how much discussion there would be if Doherty had got back in a bit quicker and thwarted Moura's effort only for it to drop for Son to hammer in the rebound, would Moutinho and/or Neves be under the same scrutiny? To my mind they were both far more passive with their tasks in that move than Doherty.

 

[Johnny75]

That's a lot of words to say 'I was wrong'.

 

[Tony Towner]

The point that you are missing Mark is that our tactics are for Coady to pass the centre forward on in those situations, he does it all the time to either Bennett or Boly. That's how they are drilled that's what they are supposed to do. In that situation the wing back covering is exactly the plan. Your Moutinho point is a red herring, that's not his job.

Bennett isn't caught in no man's land, he's marking Kane. If the ball is delivered to the middle of the goal rather than the back post, he's where he needs to be to defend it. Another photo to demonstrate.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Doherty was caught daydreaming at Brighton too. Doesn't react at all. Maybe he wouldn't have stopped either goal anyway but he didn't even try.

When it comes down to it, his defending is still fairly toss.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

The point that you are missing Mark is that our tactics are for Coady to pass the centre forward on in those situations, he does it all the time to either Bennett or Boly. That's how they are drilled that's what they are supposed to do. In that situation the wing back covering is exactly the plan. Your Moutinho point is a red herring, that's not his job.

Bennett isn't caught in no man's land, he's marking Kane. If the ball is delivered to the middle of the goal rather than the back post, he's where he needs to be to defend it. Another photo to demonstrate.

Bennett was not marking Kane a second or two before that though, at the start of the move Kane is between Boly and Coady (before you first screen grab when the is wide on the other side of the pitch and Doherty is dutifully defending against Davies right on the touchline), at that point Bennett is marking Moura. When the ball comes back to Son on the edge of the box Boly moves away from Kane to pick up the run of Lamela into the box and at that point you've got all three centre halves picking up a man, not ideal but if the opponent commits those bodies into the box you have to deal with it. Problems then return when Boly comes across to the near post as the ball is played out to Trippier, he abandons Lamela which leaves 3 against 2 for Bennett and Coady to deal with, Coady covers Lamela and Bennett is caught between the other two, he's not marking Kane as you claim because he's the wrong side so if the ball comes into Kane there's nothing Bennett could do about it anyway but that distraction brings him away from Moura.

At that point you're hoping someone can get across and do a bit of firefighting, something above and beyond what they'd generally be doing, Moutinho and Doherty are the two closest players to try and do that, the latter makes a lot more progress in that endeavour than the former, I don't think it's either of their jobs to be defending that area inside the 6 yard box but there is only one of them trying to do so, even if it is ultimately too little, too late. The problems in the defending of that attack start a long time before Moura beats Doherty to the ball at the back post but nobody wants to talk about that.

 

[Tony Towner]

He is marking Kane, a flighted aerial ball he'll be able to defend from the position he's in, a ball chest height or lower gets cut out by Coady.

 

[Johnny75]

You're wrong on the defending Mark as TT points out to you we don't defend the way you are looking at it and we haven't done for over 12 months.

Boly, Coady and Bennett are clearly doing their jobs. Boly goes to the near post as that is his area of cover, if the ball goes in low then he's in front of the goal to knock the ball out for a corner, equally if the ball is whipped in at head height he's there to do the same thing. Coady then steps across as it's much easy to jump into the ball rather than backpedal and Bennett does the same thing.

It makes sense for Doherty to cover that far post run as he can see everything and would be the last man, just as he did at Leicester.

You are right about one thing and that is the ball should never had made it's way across to Trippier from Doherty's side and he and Moutinho are at fault for not winning the ball, especially as we had just conceded. Jonny doesn't cover himself in glory either with a lame effort to stop the cross.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

He is marking Kane, a flighted aerial ball he'll be able to defend from the position he's in, a ball chest height or lower gets cut out by Coady.

If Bennett is marking Kane then it's the most laughable bit of defending in the whole passage of play, never goal side of him so no chance of ever beating him to to ball.