The Blame Game

[VanWolfie]

You are quite correct I don't think Bennett is at fault for the second goal. He's doing his job. You could argue he should be a better thinker than that and read the danger better but Ryan has developed as a footballer in this system and thinks and plays the way he does because he does what is coached and not what he thinks he should do.

It's fairly clear to me that Doherty has switched off for that goal and let a player he knew to be there and was told about to be free in the area. The biggest fault for the goal is Jonny's IMO for letting Trippier pick his spot.

I couldn't agree more. The goal and its build up was so similar to Albrighton's cross at Leicester that Docherty headed brilliantly into his own net. Jonny didn't close down Trippier (similar to what he did with Albrighton) and maybe Docherty refrained from running back to defend the open man (Lucas Mora) for fear he would put through his own goal again. But Docherty (with Jonny) was clearly at fault on this goal, not Bennett.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Well that's just charming.

Well maybe you should reflect on why you always attract such treatment. There are only really two options:

1) You are always right and the h8rs just can't take it, so they lash out, they have no way of combating just how right you are by conventional debating means

2) There is something wrong with the way you speak to people

Hint for you: Donald Trump would go with Option 1.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Well maybe you should reflect on why you always attract such treatment. There are only really two options:

1) You are always right and the h8rs just can't take it, so they lash out, they have no way of combating just how right you are by conventional debating means

2) There is something wrong with the way you speak to people

Hint for you: Donald Trump would go with Option 1.

Well maybe you should reflect on why you always attract such treatment. There are only really two options:

1) You are always right and the h8rs just can't take it, so they lash out, they have no way of combating just how right you are by conventional debating means

2) There is something wrong with the way you speak to people

Hint for you: Donald Trump would go with Option 1.

I'm not complaining about the way anyway talks to me, I couldn't really a toss either way what any faceless webmong thinks of me and I assume they feel likewise about my opinion of them. In the case of today's conversation I don't think I spoke to anyone improperly, some of my points may have become repetitive but no more so than those coming the other way. I don't expect that people are going to always be convinced by my opinion and I'm sure there are at least a few others on here that don't always expect their opinion to have the same effect on others, not that they appear too frequently. Shit goes back and forth, sometimes you'll reach some common ground, other times it'll just peter out or the topic gets sidetracked, today neither happened and we had a little circular shit for a while.

It can't always end in agreement, that's life, and in this instance I'll never agree Doherty is the main culprit in that goal no matter how many other people try to tell me otherwise or for how long they attempt to do so.

If that means I 'can't discuss like a normal person' then so be it, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

[Dublin Drummer Wolf]

Well maybe you should reflect on why you always attract such treatment. There are only really two options:

1) You are always right and the h8rs just can't take it, so they lash out, they have no way of combating just how right you are by conventional debating means

2) There is something wrong with the way you speak to people

Hint for you: Donald Trump would go with Option 1.

I don't think it's how Mark speaks to people, more the way he writes his posts;

Massive paragraphs of sentences, no line breaks, no ellipses, it's actually painful on the eyes and hard going to get through. Soz Mark.

Exhibit A:

Bennett was not marking Kane a second or two before that though, at the start of the move Kane is between Boly and Coady (before you first screen grab when the is wide on the other side of the pitch and Doherty is dutifully defending against Davies right on the touchline), at that point Bennett is marking Moura. When the ball comes back to Son on the edge of the box Boly moves away from Kane to pick up the run of Lamela into the box and at that point you've got all three centre halves picking up a man, not ideal but if the opponent commits those bodies into the box you have to deal with it. Problems then return when Boly comes across to the near post as the ball is played out to Trippier, he abandons Lamela which leaves 3 against 2 for Bennett and Coady to deal with, Coady covers Lamela and Bennett is caught between the other two, he's not marking Kane as you claim because he's the wrong side so if the ball comes into Kane there's nothing Bennett could do about it anyway but that distraction brings him away from Moura.

At that point you're hoping someone can get across and do a bit of firefighting, something above and beyond what they'd generally be doing, Moutinho and Doherty are the two closest players to try and do that, the latter makes a lot more progress in that endeavour than the former, I don't think it's either of their jobs to be defending that area inside the 6 yard box but there is only one of them trying to do so, even if it is ultimately too little, too late. The problems in the defending of that attack start a long time before Moura beats Doherty to the ball at the back post but nobody wants to talk about that.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I don't think it's how Mark speaks to people, more the way he writes his posts;

Massive paragraphs of sentences, no line breaks, no ellipses, it's actually painful on the eyes and hard going to get through. Soz Mark.

Exhibit A:

Yeah I'm not aiming for literary prizes, I just throw shit together.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So a RCB isn't responsible in any way for not winning (or even being anywhere near winning) a header at the back post?

This is amazing tactical insight.

Quite what Bennett should be doing as that cross comes in would be interesting to know, as obviously Doc should be doing his job for him.

If we played 4 at the back you may, just about have a point (if we forget that Bennett was marking Moura when the cross came in) but we don't, we play 3 CBs at the back and Doherty plays in midfield.

It is not Doherty's responsibility to be so narrow that he is defending the back post, certainly when Bennett is already there and certainly when just a few seconds earlier the ball was on Doherty's side so he had to close down.

Also it's no coincidence that a player that has "(fucking moron)" after his name on the OP repeatedly gets ripped to shreds on this forum....there is no agenda at all though.

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[machin05]

Death by a thousand papercuts.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

So a RCB isn't responsible in any way for not winning (or even being anywhere near winning) a header at the back post?

This is amazing tactical insight there.

If we played 4 at the back you may, just about have a point (if we forget that Bennett was marking Moura when the cross came in) but we don't, we play 3 CBs at the back and Doherty plays in midfield.

It is not Doherty's responsibility to be so narrow that he is defending the back post, certainly when Bennett is already there and certainly when just a few seconds earlier the ball was on Doherty's side so he had to close down.

Also it's no coincidence that a player that has "(fucking moron)" after his name on the OP repeatedly gets ripped to shreds on this forum....there is no agenda at all though.

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That was him being a fucking moron.

One of the stupidest own goals I have ever seen.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

If Jonny scores that own goal, I guarentee you don't put (fucking moron) after his name.

But we'll never know.

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[Deutsch Wolf]

I'll have to wait until he thunders a header into his own net under zero pressure, won't I.

Preferably after he's already missed an open goal and the opposition have had 0 shots.

 

[Tony Towner]

Ok, so this is where Mark and EP are wrong:

- Coady doesn't take the main centre forward of any side on a one on one if it can be prevented

- Because of this and we are about to defend a cross he passes Kane on to Bennett

- They both then signal to Doherty to come over and take Moura

- Doherty doesn't react quickly enough to that and ultimately isn't there for the cross, when if he'd sprinted straight away could have been where he needed to be

- Bennett isn't the wrong side of Kane because the ball didn't go to him. The momentum of his run would have meant that it if had have gone to Kane he would have been goal side, the the fact he wasn't was because he saw the ball was going over him and checked his run. Mark's refusal to contemplate this and respond with a 'comedy' GIF is why I called him a prick. Probably shouldn't have done, but as he correctly states he doesn't care what I think of him nor him me.

- Bennett stays on Moura and the ball goes to Kane he has a free header 6 yards out. Who gets criticised then?

- My original post, which granted did criticise Doherty was more to demonstrate what I thought was an interesting example of how we defend and how it can fall down.

- I don't have a posting history of particular anti Doherty bias, not a massive fan, but have given credit where deserved on numerous occasions as well so the accusation of bias is groundless.

It's surprising that people who watch us as often as they clearly do don't understand how we defend.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I'm not complaining about the way anyway talks to me, I couldn't really a toss either way what any faceless webmong thinks of me and I assume they feel likewise about my opinion of them. In the case of today's conversation I don't think I spoke to anyone improperly, some of my points may have become repetitive but no more so than those coming the other way. I don't expect that people are going to always be convinced by my opinion and I'm sure there are at least a few others on here that don't always expect their opinion to have the same effect on others, not that they appear too frequently. $#@! goes back and forth, sometimes you'll reach some common ground, other times it'll just peter out or the topic gets sidetracked, today neither happened and we had a little circular $#@! for a while.

It can't always end in agreement, that's life, and in this instance I'll never agree Doherty is the main culprit in that goal no matter how many other people try to tell me otherwise or for how long they attempt to do so.

If that means I 'can't discuss like a normal person' then so be it, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Welcome to Cyber Island. Population one. You're welcome to visit or stay a little longer!

Ps why wasn't Neves or Moutinho tracking Moyra the midfielder? They are both in shot doing nothing?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Ok, so this is where Mark and EP are wrong:

Such an ugly word, why need to be so absolute when so much of this is open to opinion or interpretation?

Here's where I feel there could be some flaws in TT's thinking...

- Coady doesn't take the main centre forward of any side on a one on one if it can be prevented

That's great in theory, keep a spare man to cover space behind the rest of the defence and provide something of safety net for the others, however the bit in bold is key for me. In practice there are always going to be situations where someone does get up against Coady, it's very unlikely that you'll get through a whole game keeping him spare, and in those situations he had to be capable of stepping up, taking responsibility and doing some nuts and bolts defending. If being stood inside his own 6 yard box with 3 opposition players around him isn't one such situation then I don't know what is, if he's supposed to be free there then what's the point of him actually being stood there? He's not really going to sweep up a stray one-two in there is he?

- Because of this and we are about to defend a cross he passes Kane on to Bennett

As mentioned earlier and alluded to above, I think that's an incorrect decision, Lamela, Kane and Moura are all in a central area against Boly, Coady and Bennett, ball is about to be delivered imminently so there isn't time to re-organise and get extra cover in, grab the bull by the horns and take responsibility for a man with those alongside you. Sure it's not the general tactic and in a perfect world you try to avoid it but that time has passed, it's 3 on 3 so you do what you have to do.

- They both then signal to Doherty to come over and take Moura

As above, time for this has been and gone, ball is about to be delivered and Doherty is still a long way out, if they're that desperate to try and get some support then Moutinho is the closest player but he's just ambling about. Either way I think they need to be looking to take responsibility for those three attackers as a back three and if they can get extra cover back then it's a bonus but it shouldn't be relied upon.

- Doherty doesn't react quickly enough to that and ultimately isn't there for the cross, when if he'd sprinted straight away could have been where he needed to be

He doesn't react initially but at the time he's called they actually look well set 3 against 3 in the middle and he's still got Davies outside him too.

- Bennett isn't the wrong side of Kane because the ball didn't go to him. The momentum of his run would have meant that it if had have gone to Kane he would have been goal side, the the fact he wasn't was because he saw the ball was going over him and checked his run. Mark's refusal to contemplate this and respond with a 'comedy' GIF is why I called him a prick. Probably shouldn't have done, but as he correctly states he doesn't care what I think of him nor him me.

I think there's a lot of conjecture there, we'll never know if he could've got across Kane had the flight of the ball been different or whether Kane would've been also attacked it and still beaten him to it, perhaps Kane is savvy enough to get his body across Bennett's run and gets clattered for a penalty? It's a bit of a lottery but as far as a starting point goes, he's in the wrong place in relation to Kane and he's probably the last player in the league you'd want to be giving a yard or two headstart inside the 6 yard box.

- Bennett stays on Moura and the ball goes to Kane he has a free header 6 yards out. Who gets criticised then?

By me? Well still got the same preceding problems with Lamela being free, Jonny being narrow and the midfield offering little protection but ultimately I'd be looking at Boly and Coady, former coming towards the near post and letting his man (Lamela) run off the back of him and Coady for allowing himself to be drawn into that space to cover Lamela rather than giving Boly a shout to drop back a couple of yards. It's essentially the same issue as how it panned out you just erase Bennett and Moura from the back of the picture but you've still got an overload from Spurs that has lead to Wolves' backline becoming disorganised and allowing men to get free in the box.

- My original post, which granted did criticise Doherty was more to demonstrate what I thought was an interesting example of how we defend and how it can fall down.

I'd agree in principle, through my critique I've tried to highlight what I consider several minor individual mistakes that have culminated in a systemic failure but our interpretation in the sequence, severity and consequence of those individual errors obviously differs.

- I don't have a posting history of particular anti Doherty bias, not a massive fan, but have given credit where deserved on numerous occasions as well so the accusation of bias is groundless.

It's surprising that people who watch us as often as they clearly do don't understand how we defend.

My riposte. Hopefully I did that like a normal person.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Just my 2p.

First goal is the whole LHS, mainly Boly.
Starts off with Boly getting dragged out, that’s fine. Ball comes back inside but then there is a huge Void which Lamela runs into. Jonny is already moving out wide and has sort of passed on Lamela, but between them no one actually takes responsibility.its probably Boly but sometimes it’s just a good team move who are playing fluidly which opens up these spaces.

You can’t leave the GK of this either. It’s annoying when a player can literally only score through the keepers legs and that’s where it goes. I’m not a GK so I don’t know.

For the second it’s literally anyone’s fault but Bennett’s.

Firstly the cross isn’t stopped, it’s a floaty one so he probably wouldn’t stop it anyway but still. Secondly Spurs have committed men in the box. Surprisingly when teams commit players to the box, they stand a decent chance of scoring.

Boly is never in a position to pick up a man - he’s fine (this is identified by Coady and Bennett early to bring. A man in). Coady is with Kane, Bennett is with Moura. Coady then follows the near post runner, Bennett then comes in to mark Kane, we then run out of players and Moura is free.

Third goal is all Boly plus but if Coady. It’s like Cardiff at home last year. If you’re going to come inside like that you’ve got to win it. If not you give their man the freedom of Molineux. We’re then on the back foot. Boly and Coady get back but they don’t win the ball between them and allow the cross. They get a bit lucky with the ball deflecting to Kane and then with the Save landing to Kane and then Kane slotting it in at a tight angle. He’s the best striker in the world, It happens. Maybe Bennett should have been more aware of Kane’s position, but he’s a good striker doing what good strikers do. Bennett can’t really move there otherwise there a massive void backpost.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Such an ugly word, why need to be so absolute when so much of this is open to opinion or interpretation?

Here's where I feel there could be some flaws in TT's thinking...



That's great in theory, keep a spare man to cover space behind the rest of the defence and provide something of safety net for the others, however the bit in bold is key for me. In practice there are always going to be situations where someone does get up against Coady, it's very unlikely that you'll get through a whole game keeping him spare, and in those situations he had to be capable of stepping up, taking responsibility and doing some nuts and bolts defending. If being stood inside his own 6 yard box with 3 opposition players around him isn't one such situation then I don't know what is, if he's supposed to be free there then what's the point of him actually being stood there? He's not really going to sweep up a stray one-two in there is he?



As mentioned earlier and alluded to above, I think that's an incorrect decision, Lamela, Kane and Moura are all in a central area against Boly, Coady and Bennett, ball is about to be delivered imminently so there isn't time to re-organise and get extra cover in, grab the bull by the horns and take responsibility for a man with those alongside you. Sure it's not the general tactic and in a perfect world you try to avoid it but that time has passed, it's 3 on 3 so you do what you have to do.



As above, time for this has been and gone, ball is about to be delivered and Doherty is still a long way out, if they're that desperate to try and get some support then Moutinho is the closest player but he's just ambling about. Either way I think they need to be looking to take responsibility for those three attackers as a back three and if they can get extra cover back then it's a bonus but it shouldn't be relied upon.



He doesn't react initially but at the time he's called they actually look well set 3 against 3 in the middle and he's still got Davies outside him too.



I think there's a lot of conjecture there, we'll never know if he could've got across Kane had the flight of the ball been different or whether Kane would've been also attacked it and still beaten him to it, perhaps Kane is savvy enough to get his body across Bennett's run and gets clattered for a penalty? It's a bit of a lottery but as far as a starting point goes, he's in the wrong place in relation to Kane and he's probably the last player in the league you'd want to be giving a yard or two headstart inside the 6 yard box.



By me? Well still got the same preceding problems with Lamela being free, Jonny being narrow and the midfield offering little protection but ultimately I'd be looking at Boly and Coady, former coming towards the near post and letting his man (Lamela) run off the back of him and Coady for allowing himself to be drawn into that space to cover Lamela rather than giving Boly a shout to drop back a couple of yards. It's essentially the same issue as how it panned out you just erase Bennett and Moura from the back of the picture but you've still got an overload from Spurs that has lead to Wolves' backline becoming disorganised and allowing men to get free in the box.



I'd agree in principle, through my critique I've tried to highlight what I consider several minor individual mistakes that have culminated in a systemic failure but our interpretation in the sequence, severity and consequence of those individual errors obviously differs.



My riposte. Hopefully I did that like a normal person.

Regardless of whether I agree or not.

Good effort.

 

[Johnny75]

Ps why wasn't Neves or Moutinho tracking Moyra the midfielder? They are both in shot doing nothing?

If you have seen us play under Nuno you'd realise why this is a stupid statement.

Read TT's posts (and mine) and you will understand.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

If you have seen us play under Nuno you'd realise why this is a stupid statement.

Read TT's posts (and mine) and you will understand.

Please enlighten me coach!

I can see Moutinho and Neves in shot. Why have they not tracked like they do on a zonal corner. I am all ears

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Three pictures here:
The first is where Doherty is when the centre halves call him over, the second is where he is when the cross comes in, because he's only jogged, the third where he is at the point of the header. He sprints rather than jogs in the first instance and he gets there

Moutinho is closest to moura in picture one. He moves 1 yard in. 3 pictures. Moura moves into space and scores. Initially I had Bennett as dozing. Now I await Johnny's expert analysis as to why Moutinho stops ?

 

[Tony Towner]

Moutinho is closest to moura in picture one. He moves 1 yard in. 3 pictures. Moura moves into space and scores. Initially I had Bennett as dozing. Now I await Johnny's expert analysis as to why Moutinho stops ?

He is, yes.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I am often ridiculed by Johnny and others and frankly I have crocodile skin but I also recognise that I can be dogmatic so , genuinely, despite his calling me stupid, I want to know why it's docs fault and not Moutinho?