Refereeing question

[FrankMunro-371]

Why bother with linesmen then? The only time they have any authority is offside. Even the team to be awarded the throw they wait for the referee to call it and then agree, rather than flag correctly when they have the best view.

Remember that the assistant is there to assist the referee. The only person who makes the decision is the referee. Obviously with offsides, the assistant is the official who should be in position to make the call.
Regarding throw ins, when the ball goes out in the assistants half, he leads the referee, when it goes out in the referees half he leads the assistant with a discreet hand signal pointing which way the throw is to go. The assistant then follows with his flag. There is then the grey area 10/15 yards either side of the half way line. This is where eye to eye contact comes in, and if the referee is certain he will lead his assistant, should the referee be unsure about who should get the throw in, then he should follow his assistant, who would be expected to take the lead.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

So you wouldn't put your flag up for fear of a bollocking?

Sounds like great officiating, fuck that guy with the potentially broken leg, protect your own pride.

Not at all. Pride has nothing to do with it. The referee is in charge, he gives his instructions during what is normally a quite lengthy pre match briefing, and his assistants are expected to follow his instructions. The fact that a referee is badly positioned to give a decision within his patrol path is not the assistants fault.
I understand your point Mark, but you need to understand that an assistant has limited powers in a game.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Sorry Frank, i dont understand this 'flagging' bollocks/ over ruling the ref. This why they have microphones? No one in the ground or on the pitch would know who made the decision, just that the correct decision was made due to the officials actually talking to each other!

E.g

Halsey: woah what happened there i couldnt see as someone ran across me?
Lino: looked a real bad one to me boss
Halsey: How bad? Sending off bad?
Lino: Yeah one of the worst of seen.

Halsey can now do what he wants! And its on him. Then in the report he says what he did. If in retrospect a bad decision is made, then you can easily pin the blame. If in this case he didnt send him off despite what the lino said, then he should be punished. If the lino said it wasnt worthy of punishement, he should be punished etc.

It really isnt rocket science

The assistants are not allowed to give the referee assistance in regard to the the onfield decisions via the microphones.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

I agree. It's Yanga-Mbiwa who runs across by the way, it's his poor, way overhit pass which causes Haidara to only half-control it and the ball to run free. Not that that exonerates Halsey and his merry band in the slightest.

I remember a game in the mid 90s down here, Uriah Rennie was the ref, and he gave us a penalty after consulting with the linesman who was much better positioned, an example of really good refereeing. Then he turned into an utter buffoon in the years to come. Halsey was well regarded a few years back too but he has been horrific for a long long time now, and not just against us. The authorities need some kind of independent assessment process, be it from ex-players, ex-managers, fans, whoever. Keeping it all in-house just makes it look like a boys' club.

And I would be sure that the assistant who helped Mr Rennie out was in the same half of the pitch, and that the incident occurred where he was better positioned than the referee.

 

[PuntsWolf]

The assistants are not allowed to give the referee assistance in regard to the the onfield decisions via the microphones.

Why?

That's just stupid. I rest my case that the whole system is bollocks. I now understand why shit decisions are made.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Not at all. Pride has nothing to do with it. The referee is in charge, he gives his instructions during what is normally a quite lengthy pre match briefing, and his assistants are expected to follow his instructions. The fact that a referee is badly positioned to give a decision within his patrol path is not the assistants fault.
I understand your point Mark, but you need to understand that an assistant has limited powers in a game.

The referee can give whatever decision he likes regardless of whether the assistant flags or not. They should flag everything they see and let the main man overrule them where needed, not sit idly by.

 

[VanWolfie]

Not at all. Pride has nothing to do with it. The referee is in charge, he gives his instructions during what is normally a quite lengthy pre match briefing, and his assistants are expected to follow his instructions. The fact that a referee is badly positioned to give a decision within his patrol path is not the assistants fault.
I understand your point Mark, but you need to understand that an assistant has limited powers in a game.

Frank, I'm going to disagree with you on this one. You cite correctly the expectations from pre-game instructions as they relate to who is to call what in which area of the pitch, particularly that the assistant takes his lead from the referee when the incident is in the referee's patrol path. However, I think you are falling into a similarly insidious trap that the FA did in not taking action in this case because of a rule agreed to at the beginning of the season, suggesting that the rule needs to be changed before they can act. As both Scudamore and Taylor have maintained, the rule does not need to be changed but exceptional circumstances should be recognized in this case warranting action by the FA. Analogously, the assistant in this incident should be able to recognize the exceptional circumstance of such a horror tackle as to take action and flag, particularly if the referee is blindly allowing play to go on, and not be bound by the pre-game instructions when foul play of this magnitude goes undetected! He is after all a fully qualified referee, that's why he's now called an Assistant Referee, instead of linesman!

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Frank, I'm going to disagree with you on this one. You cite correctly the expectations from pre-game instructions as they relate to who is to call what in which area of the pitch, particularly that the assistant takes his lead from the referee when the incident is in the referee's patrol path. However, I think you are falling into a similarly insidious trap that the FA did in not taking action in this case because of a rule agreed to at the beginning of the season, suggesting that the rule needs to be changed before they can act. As both Scudamore and Taylor have maintained, the rule does not need to be changed but exceptional circumstances should be recognized in this case warranting action by the FA. Analogously, the assistant in this incident should be able to recognize the exceptional circumstance of such a horror tackle as to take action and flag, particularly if the referee is blindly allowing play to go on, and not be bound by the pre-game instructions when foul play of this magnitude goes undetected! He is after all a fully qualified referee, that's why he's now called an Assistant Referee, instead of linesman!

I totally agree that the FA should have taken action, as the tackle was disgraceful, and it is wrong that the player has not been punished. However, as you well know, an assistant at that level knows his duties, and the limitations of those duties. In this case we had the referee much closer than the assistant, and in pre match briefings assistants are asked to give decisions that are credible, and not to give the referee any surprises when raising their flag. I would suggest that in the case in question, it would not have been a credible decision, as the referee was much closer, and also would imagine the referee would have been very surprised had the assistant raised his flag and/or pressed his buzzer.

I do accept that maybe we need to look at pre match instructions to assistants, but I cannot see how we can encourage an assistant to take decisions off the referee when the referee is far closer. One avenue we could look at is the role of the fourth official. Maybe he could get involved if he is in a better position than the referee, but that will start a whole new debate.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I find it both curious and interesting that the ruling is entirely different from Rugby Union. If skullduggery goes on around the ruck and out of the referee's sight, the line judge puts his flag out and steps one step onto the field of play to indicate he has seen something untoward that warrants action and then advises the unsighted referee about the action to take. It seems to work really well.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Why?

That's just stupid. I rest my case that the whole system is bollocks. I now understand why shit decisions are made.

I agree that the system does need looking at, as we always need to try to improve the standards of our officials, but the referee is in charge of games, and we should not be looking to take any authority off him. Just imagine the scenario of an over zealous assistant who tries to referee the game, and this has happened before. Therefore whatever is done we must never allow the authority of the referee to be undermined.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

I find it both curious and interesting that the ruling is entirely different from Rugby Union. If skullduggery goes on around the ruck and out of the referee's sight, the line judge puts his flag out and steps one step onto the field of play to indicate he has seen something untoward that warrants action and then advises the unsighted referee about the action to take. It seems to work really well.

There is an awful lot we could learn from rugby. Citing players, the ten yard rule for dissent as examples. We should always strive to improve, and as is clear, there are many areas regarding match officials and the laws of the game that need looking at.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Mark Halsey has been "relegated" to league one this weekend. Instead of taking charge of a premier league game, he will be at Coventry.

 

[Jabbawolf]

Mark Halsey has been "relegated" to league one this weekend. Instead of taking charge of a premier league game, he will be at Coventry.

Just when they thought things couldn't get any worse.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I agree that the system does need looking at, as we always need to try to improve the standards of our officials, but the referee is in charge of games, and we should not be looking to take any authority off him. Just imagine the scenario of an over zealous assistant who tries to referee the game, and this has happened before. Therefore whatever is done we must never allow the authority of the referee to be undermined.

He doesnt have to undermine the referee or make decisions, he just needs to 'assist' in making the decision, increasing the likelihood that the correct decision is made. A little bit of dialogue could allow this to happen. Like i said, no one needs to know that it was the linesman who made the decision, just alert the referee if you think he has clearly missed something.

 

[Johnny75]

There is an awful lot we could learn from rugby. Citing players, the ten yard rule for dissent as examples. We should always strive to improve, and as is clear, there are many areas regarding match officials and the laws of the game that need looking at.

They tried the ten yard rule and abandoned it, do you know why Frank?

They also tried soluble spray paint to mark a line where the wall should be and it worked well in Brasil but they didn't go through with that either. Not sure why that was either. I wonder why the game is so antiquated in terms of refereeing at the moment.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

They tried the ten yard rule and abandoned it, do you know why Frank?

They also tried soluble spray paint to mark a line where the wall should be and it worked well in Brasil but they didn't go through with that either. Not sure why that was either. I wonder why the game is so antiquated in terms of refereeing at the moment.

Because the clubs complained, saying it was not working, and players dare not speak to the referee. This was a great chance for the FA to say bad luck, you will just have to teach discipline to your players.

Another reason it was scrapped was because some referees were barely using it, while others penalised every piece of dissent. Inconsistencies that could have been ironed out. The referee association urged that the ten yard rule should be kept.

Oh and FIFA did not like it either!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Also sometimes it didn't benefit the attacking team - given that the opposition are still allowed to have a wall, you'd rather have a freekick 25 yards out trying to get it up and over a wall of say, five man, than 15 yards out and trying to have to blast it through all ten outfield players.

 

[Law's Bus]

There is an awful lot we could learn from rugby. Citing players, the ten yard rule for dissent as examples. We should always strive to improve, and as is clear, there are many areas regarding match officials and the laws of the game that need looking at.

I've long been an advocate of rugby-style referreeing in football.

Surround the referee? You're off.
Shout abuse at the referee from two inches away? You're off
Dissent? You're off.

It would also help the stupid refereeing we saw in the Premier League where you could see the referees using first names - "Ashley", "Frank" etc. No, sorry, it's "blue, 3".

 

[VanWolfie]

I totally agree that the FA should have taken action, as the tackle was disgraceful, and it is wrong that the player has not been punished. However, as you well know, an assistant at that level knows his duties, and the limitations of those duties. In this case we had the referee much closer than the assistant, and in pre match briefings assistants are asked to give decisions that are credible, and not to give the referee any surprises when raising their flag. I would suggest that in the case in question, it would not have been a credible decision, as the referee was much closer, and also would imagine the referee would have been very surprised had the assistant raised his flag and/or pressed his buzzer.

I do accept that maybe we need to look at pre match instructions to assistants, but I cannot see how we can encourage an assistant to take decisions off the referee when the referee is far closer. One avenue we could look at is the role of the fourth official. Maybe he could get involved if he is in a better position than the referee, but that will start a whole new debate.

Your response is thoughtful and understandable but not, in this specific case, compelling. On this one thing, however, we do agree: Halsey is not very credible as a top referee any more, even less so in my eyes for shifting the responsibility in his report to the Assistant who saw the incident.

 

[Jolemai]

I've long been an advocate of rugby-style referreeing in football.

Surround the referee? You're off.
Shout abuse at the referee from two inches away? You're off
Dissent? You're off.

It would also help the stupid refereeing we saw in the Premier League where you could see the referees using first names - "Ashley", "Frank" etc. No, sorry, it's "blue, 3".

I imagine most will agree with you, but sadly it wont happen.