Giro d'Italia / Tour de France

[Squeeze]

I take on board all of the comments here and this is a conversation that should be had, there is a lot of polarisation in opinion about trans people at the moment and a lot of it is borne out of misinformation and misunderstanding.

Let's look at the facts for a moment. A male cannot compete in a womans sport. However, a transwoman can compete in a womans sport if evidence can be submitted that proves the athlete has no unfair advantage. In McKinnon's case she was not a world class cyclist when she was classed as male. Now as a woman she is required to have almost non existent levels of testosterone - far lower than a natal woman. To put it in some perspective the IOC already have rules in place around this "An athlete transitioning to a woman must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate that the total level of male testosterone in the blood has been below 10 nanomols per litre for at least a year prior to competing.The previous rule stated that, "in addition to reassignment surgery, the athlete required a minimum of two years of hormone treatment. How long it will take the athlete to reach the new cutoff limit will depend on individual cases" So, if you change sex, you will have to have a hormone level below 10 for 12 months and that's not a one-year guarantee. You don’t go below 10 from day one. It takes quite some time. It can take more than two years. The research done by medical physicist Joanna Harper has proven that once testosterone is all but removed and oestrogen introduced power levels fall enough to come in line with the physical capabilities of natural-born female athletes.

You may of course disagree and I will try to respond with grace, as is my way.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

For clarity - there is absolutely a place in mainstream sport for the trans community. No doubt about it and anyone who knows me will know I am far from prejudiced.

But this:

The move means that trans students in 56 third-level institutions in Canada are now allowed to play as the gender that they identify as, without getting hormone therapy.

Seriously, you cannot do this. Physically, it isn't safe. I'm not bigging myself up here but if you put me in a women's football game tomorrow and I play properly, someone is going to get hurt, just because of the way I play.

There needn't be an alarm that goes off any time someone says to a trans individual "no, you can't do that for now". It's not prejudice, it's not bigotry, it's not small mindedness, it's common sense.

And I say that with the utmost respect to you Squeeze, as a friend.

 

[Tony Towner]

I'm happy to be educated on this, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but testosterone isn't related to size or power? Testosterone levels can be significantly lower from those prior to transitioning, but that still doesn't get away from the natural physical advantages that come with the body you were born in? As I said previously I don't know the answer, but the solution needs to be fair for all.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Reading Rachel’s post on Twitter about breaking the 200m world indoor record there are trans women saying that she shouldn’t be competing in the women’s event.

 

[Squeeze]

For clarity - there is absolutely a place in mainstream sport for the trans community. No doubt about it and anyone who knows me will know I am far from prejudiced.

But this:



Seriously, you cannot do this. Physically, it isn't safe. I'm not bigging myself up here but if you put me in a women's football game tomorrow and I play properly, someone is going to get hurt, just because of the way I play.

There needn't be an alarm that goes off any time someone says to a trans individual "no, you can't do that for now". It's not prejudice, it's not bigotry, it's not small mindedness, it's common sense.

And I say that with the utmost respect to you Squeeze, as a friend.

No offence taken whatsoever. I'm not interested in starting an argument about bigotry, that's not how I roll, I deal with that every day and I don't think asking questions equals bigotry at all. The Canadian example is extreme for sure and I totally get why there are concerns - which is why I bring you back to the point of the need for evidence that there is no unfair advantage. Tony asked about the testosterone issue, when you strip out testosterone and insert oestrogen you see a large percentage drop in performance, the medical physicists reckon this to be around 11.4% which mirrors the performance gap between top-tier male and female athletes, so even with the history in indoor athletics Rachel now is down to the level of a female competitor in terms of power. As for someone getting hurt in a game of football with women....I'm not sure it would always be the girls Dan, have you seen the size of some of those Amazons.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Ah, in this specific example I don't have an issue (albeit I don't know much about cycling). I'm more looking at a direct male-female transition. There has to be a period where you can't play. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is.

As for physicality in a male/female football game...I don't mind getting a bit back But really, I've seen a few WSL games and some of the girls are talented but they're wallflowers by men's standards. They'd get ploughed through in a serious game. Our very own Connor Ronan is perceived to struggle a little bit in senior football and he's 20 now. Ladies up against that kind of thing...just wouldn't work. Even at amateur level. I'm sure they have their enforcers but in general they would be battered physically. Not in a nasty way, that's just the way the game is.

 

[Squeeze]

Ah, in this specific example I don't have an issue (albeit I don't know much about cycling). I'm more looking at a direct male-female transition. There has to be a period where you can't play. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is.

As for physicality in a male/female football game...I don't mind getting a bit back But really, I've seen a few WSL games and some of the girls are talented but they're wallflowers by men's standards. They'd get ploughed through in a serious game. Our very own Connor Ronan is perceived to struggle a little bit in senior football and he's 20 now. Ladies up against that kind of thing...just wouldn't work. Even at amateur level. I'm sure they have their enforcers but in general they would be battered physically. Not in a nasty way, that's just the way the game is.

No, I know - I was thinking more about you on a pitch with some of those lasses :icon_biggrin:.

It's shame really because up until about 13 the girls absolutely hold their own on the pitch. I suppose the material issue is here that it is very very rare for someone to wake up one morning and go you know what - I think I'll transition today. That shit takes years and years, treatment takes years and years (it's very unusual btw for a trans person not to want hormone therapy...so I'm a bit perplexed by the Canadian college thing, maybe a bit of self ID legislation that they have had to include?). I don't for one moment think they haven't got some sort of safeguards in place to prevent injury and accidents, they'd be mad not to. Sport's no fun if you're just going to take a beating every time you play. Craig is right to point out that some parts of the Trans community have reservations themselves, they do not want the heat that this sort of controversy brings. It's tough enough being them as it is and this is just another stick to beat them with.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

And it's an easy angle for those that ARE bigoted to attack.

Yeah, we played alongside girls in primary school and this was late 80s/early 90s. Development wise I don't think it makes a great deal of difference until your teens. When I was growing up and we played over the park the best two footballers were me (of course ) and my mate Dawn who lived down the street.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Thanks for posting Squeeze. Interesting to read facts.

 

[Johnny75]

No offence taken whatsoever. I'm not interested in starting an argument about bigotry, that's not how I roll, I deal with that every day and I don't think asking questions equals bigotry at all. The Canadian example is extreme for sure and I totally get why there are concerns - which is why I bring you back to the point of the need for evidence that there is no unfair advantage. Tony asked about the testosterone issue, when you strip out testosterone and insert oestrogen you see a large percentage drop in performance, the medical physicists reckon this to be around 11.4% which mirrors the performance gap between top-tier male and female athletes, so even with the history in indoor athletics Rachel now is down to the level of a female competitor in terms of power. As for someone getting hurt in a game of football with women....I'm not sure it would always be the girls Dan, have you seen the size of some of those Amazons.

I understand dropping testosterone levels will bring performance down, what won't change is the physical shape and history of the athlete. Take an extreme example, if Thibault Courtois were to transition then he would have a huge unfair advantage as he's 6'6" and I don't think there are many women keepers with his size and levers. His height isn't going to change no matter what sex he is.

You then get to the mechanical advantage, this particular cyclist will have longer levers with a set of muscle fibres she developed as a man. Then she has the narrow hips, denser bone and power delivery of a man compared to a woman. These are all well known biomechanical facts. It would be the quivalent of an athlete developed using drugs until they want to compete and then being clean for 12 months. The build up in performance and history would negate any drop in performance.

You couldn't have a trans boxer as that would be dangerous, again the biology tells us that women's skulls are different to mens in that a man's skull is thicker at the front and has more space between skull and brain. Women are also 3 times more likely to be knocked out than a man in like for like situations. Putting a trans athlete in would be fatal.

It's hard to know what the answer is but I don't think the cyclist competing in this case is fair.

 

[Squeeze]

And I accept your points. It comes down to the tension between inclusion and fairness. This paper https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2018/04/...f-the-cases-of-laurel-hubbard-and-mack-beggs/ explains it better than I can. It does make the point that humans come in all shapes and sizes, regardless of gender so we are all playing on an unlevel playing field all of the time anyway - but I am being facetious, thanks for joining the discussion. Believe me when I say ordinary trans people would far rather have a calm debate. This is new territory for many.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Next year's tour route looks a bit meh.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Thread necromancy.

Brilliant finish in the Tour of Catalunya. Adam Yates is trying to pinch it on the last stage and it is fantastic to watch.

 

[Johnny75]

What channel is that Paddy?

Don't think I haven't forgotten that you still want to do Mt Ventoux one day.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It was on Eurosport. Yates came up just short. Went with a solo break with 40k to go but got wrapped up by Lopez with about 3k left. It was great stuff.

I haven't forgotten the Ventoux thing!

 

[Johnny75]

The Giro comes to a close this weekend and whilst it hasn't been a classic there has been some great racing. Today was supposed to be the last sprinters day but a breakaway won it.

The group of 3 had been out front for 150km and the sprinters dropped a bollock by not pushing as hard and they got beaten on the line by a lad whose best finish had been 96th in a stage. His team was division 2 and they had never won a stage in a staged race.

The equivalent of Reading beating Man City at the death.

 

[machin05]

The Mortirolo looked savage the other day.

 

[Johnny75]

Any mountain with 22% gradients and death in the name LS going to be painful.

There's 2 mountain stages to finish, the cyclists look knackered!

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Shame we lost the Gavia from that stage. The Gavia / Mortirolo combo is about as brutal as climbing gets.

 

[Sniffer]

Chris Froome has broken a leg is out of the Tour de France.