Fans Against VAR - Join us

[Alan]

Well, what I mean is, how do we know that's what they're using? From the tech side, that assertion doesn't seem to make any sense.

I've done a fair bit of google snooping and can't find anything about it.

 

[fansagainstvar]

Well, what I mean is, how do we know that's what they're using? From the tech side, that assertion doesn't seem to make any sense.

I've done a fair bit of google snooping and can't find anything about it.

Johnny will love this because it's from a University!

Motion capture reveals why VAR in football struggles with offside decisions

New research shows why VAR isn't always accurate enough to judge offside moments.

www.bath.ac.uk

 

[Alan]

Holy shit, actual sources! Well done.

On the other hand…

So, the viewer has to use their own judgement to extrapolate where the players were at the moment the ball was kicked, which affects whether it is offside or not.

Isn’t that what they were doing before VAR, but with much less information to go on?

 

[Johnny75]

Johnny will love this because it's from a University!

Motion capture reveals why VAR in football struggles with offside decisions

New research shows why VAR isn't always accurate enough to judge offside moments.

www.bath.ac.uk

We should all love actual evidence rather than belief.

The article you've linked is based upon actual evidence. To build an argument for VAR not being used for offsides in the back of it is as spirits as it gets as the alternative is the human and they are worse than the cameras both on accuracy and range of vision.

 

[fansagainstvar]

Holy shit, actual sources! Well done.

On the other hand…

Isn’t that what they were doing before VAR, but with much less information to go on?

Interesting how you haven't called out anyone on your own side for their baseless, non-sourced opinions.

Secondly, yes. But people were adults and accepted that if you were level you were basically onside and the benefit of the attack was given to the attacker.

 

[Alan]

I’m not arguing in bad faith here, there’s no need to be rude.

Also, “people were adults and accepted it” is not quite how I remember pre-VAR.

 

[Tony Towner]

Also, “people were adults and accepted it” is not quite how I remember pre VAR

It's not, we all remember the Halsey and Rennie games well, getting cheated out of a potential promotion at Bolton etc...but there wasn't an opportunity to correct things so as annoying and frustrating as it was you didn't have much choice other to rant and suck it up. Now we are on the wrong end of decisions with that opportunity and still get sawn off. That for me is worse.

 

[Alan]

It's not, we all remember the Halsey and Rennie games well, getting cheated out of a potential promotion at Bolton etc...but there wasn't an opportunity to correct things so as annoying and frustrating as it was you didn't have much choice other to rant and suck it up. Now we are on the wrong end of decisions with that opportunity and still get sawn off. That for me is worse.

I genuinely empathize with that frustration, though I would argue that the opportunity now being present at all means there is a much better chance at tangible improvement.

Unfortunately, the fools in charge of it all have made it into a "will get worse before it gets better" situation, IMV.

 

[fansagainstvar]

I’m not arguing in bad faith here, there’s no need to be rude.

Also, “people were adults and accepted it” is not quite how I remember pre-VAR.

I'm just pointing out you are criticising me for not sourcing my arguments, when several people on the other side have done this also.

I'm not trying to be rude, but for 100+ years and to this day in every single of our divisions below the Premier League, fans do just accept marginal offsides as "level" or "onside". The player isn't trying to cheat by being 1mm offside.

 

[Alan]

I didn't criticize you for not sourcing your arguments, I praised you for providing one!

The suspicion is weird, I ain't Howard Webb's sidepiece.

 

[fansagainstvar]

I didn't criticize you for not sourcing your arguments, I praised you for providing one!

The suspicion is weird, I ain't Howard Webb's sidepiece.

Out of genuine interest, what changes would you make to VAR? And which referees would run VAR?

 

[Alan]

For what it's worth, "the player isn't trying to cheat by being 1mm offside" is a statement I fully support.

 

[Alan]

Out of genuine interest, what changes would you make to VAR? And which referees would run VAR?

1) No offside lines. Naked eye only; benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker.
2) No "Clear & Obvious" standard for VAR to get involved.
3) The VAR is given the ability to overrule simple calls (throw ins, corners/goal kicks, etc.) unilaterally.
4) In-stadium officials communicate the exact incident being reviewed to match-going supporters.

Off the top o' me head.

As for who's running it, I don't have a scooby. But it can't be the idiots in charge now or anybody connected to them as an organization.

My 3rd especially would be absolute madness with the current crop of match officials.

 

[fansagainstvar]

1) No offside lines. Naked eye only; benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker.
2) No "Clear & Obvious" standard for VAR to get involved.
3) The VAR is given the ability to overrule simple calls (throw ins, corners/goal kicks, etc.) unilaterally.
4) In-stadium officials communicate the exact incident being reviewed to match-going supporters.

Off the top o' me head.

As for who's running it, I don't have a scooby. But it can't be the idiots in charge now or anybody connected to them as an organization.

My 3rd especially would be absolute madness with the current crop of match officials.

1) Agree
2) and 3) Very difficult to implement, would likely slow the game down more and frustrate fans in stadiums more
4) Opens referees up to embarrassing gaffes, but could work.

If you're in favour of VAR, I would say you should have an idea of who you think should run it. Whether that be new referees, ex-players etc.

 

[Tony Towner]

1) Agree
2) and 3) Very difficult to implement, would likely slow the game down more and frustrate fans in stadiums more
4) Opens referees up to embarrassing gaffes, but could work.

If you're in favour of VAR, I would say you should have an idea of who you think should run it. Whether that be new referees, ex-players etc.

I disagree on 2, it'd be no different to today, just with a different emphasis. Rather than trying to find a reason to support the original decision it judges the incident purely on it's own merit. Take our penalty yesterday, it would have taken as long, but with a different outcome

 

[Alan]

I'm not sure where I stand on the "let the game flow" thing. There are already tons of little stoppages in play.

More to the point, I've seen more than a few matches where play didn't get broken up a lot, yet they were still utterly boring.

 

[Boozad]

Correct decisions is the ultimate goal, whether it’s video assisted or not. It really is hard enough to swallow bad decisions made by the on field refs but when somebody looks at a decision like the Newcastle ‘penalty’ and agrees it boils your piss. That isn’t the fault of technology, it’s either the refs blatantly protecting each other, protecting each other by hiding behind “clear and obvious error”, or just being utterly shit, that’s all open for debate. So the easy thing would be to remove the clear and obvious and just look at the incident for what it is, not what it’s been called for. Is that a penalty? No. Fucking call it despite what the the on field ref thinks he’s seen. That was the aim of VAR wasn’t it?

It’s not the technology that’s at fault, it’s a fucking video, it really is the users and the protocols they hide behind. The fact they’ve demoted three refs this season alone just through decisions against Wolves proves that. So you either change the people on VAR or bin it off because in its current format it is never going to get better. And no I don’t think it’s improved the game, others will disagree, especially the teams who seem to benefit more from it than get punished by it (Liverpool’s reaction to the ‘offside’ goal as a case in point, how long did it take to affect them and the fallout was comical). Personally I’ve lost interest in whichever way it goes because football in general has lost its magic.

 

[Boozad]

And now Arsenal release a club statement demanding better refereeing. I mean yeah, OK, the standard of our refereeing is wank for the most part, there’s no real argument there, but this is the problem with football. The ‘big clubs’ didn’t say a fucking word when they’re benefitting from VAR (Liverpool largely against us) and the smaller clubs just have to grin and bear it. But when the shoe is on the other foot the bigger clubs think they can just demand explanations, games replayed, better refereeing standards etc. Why weren’t you bothered the past few seasons? Oh, because it always went your way. That’s why. It’s sickening, and if anything points to at least some level of bias in the decision making.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Clear and obvious has to go. The VAR team has to be independent of PGMOL. These not being the case at the moment leads to a default where the on field is automatically right unless overwhelming evidence exists, even if balance of probabilities points the other way. This is leading to numerous bollocks decisions.

 

[EdgeOfTheAlps]

It really wasn't more fun as Bear pointed out, but that is subjective.

It's not the 7% difference in decisions as there could only be a 9% increase anyway. It's the increase to less than 2% of decisions wrong that is important compared to 9%.

That's a huge difference.

And there is the improvement in behaviour too. That is certainly an improvement on the viewing experience imo.

Plenty of flaws with it as has been pointed out. But it is factually correct to say we have significantly less incorrect decisions than before VAR's introduction.

Are you seriously enjoying football more because of VAR? Simple question