Coronavirus

[Johnny75]

Oh Johnny... Come on mate. Their past voting record in the last 10 years has no bearing on the situation today?

Now I know that YOU are better than that

I won't defend any of them as I think the last 3 years of Tory rule has been as bad as anything I've seen in my lifetime with some truly appalling characters.

I think the equating of their achievements and suitability for power has nothing to do with the current crisis though. The hindsight being employed by some folks is bordering on a parallel universe. I haven't seen a single document that says the NHS would've bought tens of thousands of ventilators or manufactured millions of items of PPE on the chance this virus would've happened.

 

[Johnny75]

So you think this yourself, but criticise people for criticising them?

Read above. People are throwing stones because they are Tories and haven't got the government they want in charge.

My post below yours explains this better.

 

[Paul]

My problem with that stance is you have put in a barrier to entry. To bring it back to this thread, we could've missed out on brilliant immunologists, epidemiologists and virologists just because of that monetary barrier to entry. The best way, IMO, to stop people behaving like bellends is to educate them, look at the current nonsense over 5G networks, Farage, Anti Vaccine, flat earth theory and Tommy Robinson. Educate the populous that these people and conspiracy theories are all bollocks and you don't have Trump in the White House and half the bollocks keeping us as a human race in thrall to some absolutely evil people.

Cannot argue with any of that, my only issue is the crux of all education is people wanting to learn, you cannot teach what people don't want to know, some people are just happy with their lot regardless of level of education.

 

[Rui_CostCo]

Interesting report. Not sure why you've put up the section you have as the important table for me is table 5 which is the critical care outcome by sub group.

I don't have the ability on my iPad to put that table up sadly. The data shows that mortality rates in ITU are around 50% but age and underlying conditions skew that towards 60-70%

It does show that if you had an existing condition for 6 months prior (comorbidity) that you were more likely to die than those that did not. The number of folks that died between 60 and 80 and had comorbidity is not in the report sadly as that would give a better picture as it seems both of those groups have much higher mortality rates than any other. 68 and 58% respectively.

I can ask Stuart to explain why he feels these are the important charts if you like but, and this isn't meant snarkilly, you'll need to let me know what you're area of expertise is and why that puts you in a better position to draw conclusions from the report than the Head of Demographic Assumptions and Methodology at Lloyds Banking Group because he's going to ask and I'm certainly not going to say because I think he's wrong.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Read below. People are throwing stones because they are Tories and haven't got the government they want in charge.

My post below yours explains this better.

Not really, I speak as I find.

I praised Sunak's appearances at pretty much every conference he did, even if at times there were gaps in what he was proposing.

I'll have a go at our infamously lazy Prime Minister when he displays a cavalier attitude towards the crisis, thinks cracking jokes is a good idea, can't answer questions without stammering all over the place, issues ambiguous guidance leading thousands to crowd public spaces and generally acts as if the whole thing is beneath him.

I'll have a go at Hancock overpromising and underdelivering just because he was desperate to stick some vaguely good news out there, which has now happened more than once.

I'll have a go at Raab's awful delivery when clarity of message is absolutely key.

I'll have a go at Gove now deciding that we need experts after he derided that stance when it suited him.

The rest are largely incidental as they've been all but invisible during this crisis but as I say, that was the question asked. I didn't just bring them into the discussion out of nowhere.

 

[Johnny75]

I can ask Stuart to explain why he feels these are the important charts if you like but, and this isn't meant snarkilly, you'll need to let me know what you're area of expertise is and why that puts you in a better position to draw conclusions from the report than the Head of Demographic Assumptions and Methodology at Lloyds Banking Group because he's going to ask and I'm certainly not going to say because I think he's wrong.

You've clearly misinterpreted my post. My question was to why YOU chose the section you did to put a point across nobody argued was happening anyway.

I thought the more interesting part was the correlation between mortality and comorbidity and explained why.

 

[darlowolf64]

I won't defend any of them as I think the last 3 years of Tory rule has been as bad as anything I've seen in my lifetime with some truly appalling characters.

I think the equating of their achievements and suitability for power has nothing to do with the current crisis though. The hindsight being employed by some folks is bordering on a parallel universe. I haven't seen a single document that says the NHS would've bought tens of thousands of ventilators or manufactured millions of items of PPE on the chance this virus would've happened.

I have been pretty clear in my stance against the closing or downgrading of Hospitals in the 60 towns and cities across the UK. Do you not think that we may have coped better with the extra 60 hospitals running as fully functioning buildings, fully staffed and operational?

 

[Rui_CostCo]

You've clearly misinterpreted my post. My question was to why YOU chose the section you did to put a point across nobody argued was happening anyway.

I thought the more interesting part was the correlation between mortality and comorbidity and explained why.

As Stuart points out - the co morbidity issue is a red herring, it does the message being put out is that it's only old codgers who were going to die anyway that are passing away. It's not a section, it's Stuarts opinion in full. You're questioning what he is said, not me. The only words out of my mouth is the first paragraph starting This was written by written by Stuart McDonald, Head of Demographic Assumptions and Methodology at Lloyds Banking Group ... and ending wit ... It's up to you if you believe him or not, if you think he's qualified to make these statements and , there is a link to the report at the bottom.

If you think the data is incomplete contact ICNARC and ask them why

You never accept anything I say, and just call me a Socialist mouthpiece. You're literally questioning his analysis not mine when you say that you think the more important part is x y and z. All I'm asking is, if you think you know better, and would like me to get a response for you, you're going to have to explain to me the basis of that because I'm not prepared to say it's either me doing it or some guy on a message board thinks he knows better, because i can tell you his answer will be very short and extremely sweary

 

[Papper]

This is where I do agree with the rampant socialists on here. The private school system shouldn't exist, not because everybody should have an equal education, that's impossible to achieve, but you shouldn't need to pay for a good education.

People have no choice if the state system does not produce results and they want the best for their kids. The literacy and numeracy rates in the UK are appalling for school leavers. Even prominent ' socialists ' send their kids to fee paying schools.

 

[Johnny75]

I have been pretty clear in my stance against the closing or downgrading of Hospitals in the 60 towns and cities across the UK. Do you not think that we may have coped better with the extra 60 hospitals running as fully functioning buildings, fully staffed and operational?

If they all had ITU and ventilators then the answer is clearly yes. I still haven't seen anything to say this would be the case.

There were 5 hospitals round here that have shut, not one of them had an ITU ward as they were predominantly cottage hospital units. Would I like to see them reopened and better staffed, absolutely.

When this crisis is over I hope that happens and our healthcare is better funded and without doing that I think the government will lose the next election by more than Corbyn's failure.

 

[Papper]

I praised Sunak's appearances at pretty much every conference he did, even if at times there were gaps in what he was proposing.

He's steady and slick (most of them are) but the bias is in the fact he's appeared from no-where (no baggage) and that he is bearing gifts (which makes him instantly popular). The proof in the pudding will be when he starts to figure out how it all gets paid back and his mates on Wall Street get their GDP back.

 

[Kenny]

What I will ask, after watching the clip of Hancock in the HoC in January is did we under estimate the virus. At that point it was classed as a low risk going forward and the NHS was going to cope, no problems whatsoever and by doing that did we leave ourselves wide open and having to race around around trying to get equipment (lets leave to one side when that happened we suddenly became picky who we purchased from).

If that is the case, then you hope the inquiry when this is under control, nails whoever put us on the "it won't hurt us" road

 

[Rui_CostCo]

If they all had ITU and ventilators then the answer is clearly yes. I still haven't seen anything to say this would be the case.

There were 5 hospitals round here that have shut, not one of them had an ITU ward as they were predominantly cottage hospital units. Would I like to see them reopened and better staffed, absolutely.

When this crisis is over I hope that happens and our healthcare is better funded and without doing that I think the government will lose the next election by more than Corbyn's failure.

Closing the smaller hospitals has put extra pressure on the remaining ones, leaving them now unable to cope with an influx of cv-19 patients.

 

[Tredman]

People have no choice if the state system does not produce results and they want the best for their kids. The literacy and numeracy rates in the UK are appalling for school leavers. Even prominent ' socialists ' send their kids to fee paying schools.

This is massively off topic, but please don't post conjecture as fact. UK literacy rate is 99% and has been for a very long time.

 

[Johnny75]

As Stuart points out - the co morbidity issue is a red herring,

He doesn't at all. In fact the data supports that comorbidity has a higher mortality rate. (Table 5)

the message being put out is that it's only old codgers who were going to die anyway that passing away

Literally nobody on this board has said that. The data proves that if you are older you are more likely to die, that is indisputable

It's not a section, it's Stuarts opinion in full.

It is quite literally a section of his report

You're questioning what he is said, not me.

I'm really not, you chose a section of a report and I don't know why. I thought another section of his report was more interesting as the data correlation between patients with co morbidity and those without was different. You seem to think that having an underlying health condition means the patient is at 'death's door'. It isn't as the table proves and Stuart points out. You could've had a heart attack or angina and be classed as not needing help around the house and according to the data those underlying health conditions put you at more risk than those who have not got those conditions.

I don't think you can read reports correctly and with most folks who try to bullshit with science fail miserably.

The only words out of my mouth is the first paragraph starting This was written by written by Stuart McDonald, Head of Demographic Assumptions and Methodology at Lloyds Banking Group ... and ending wit ... It's up to you if you believe him or not, if you think he's qualified to make these statements and , there is a link to the report at the bottom.

If you think the data is incomplete contact ICNARC and ask them why

WTF are you on about? Did Stuart write all that guff about agendas?

You never accept anything I say, and just call me a Socialist mouthpiece.

I fucking hate socialists, never called you a socialist mouthpiece though.

You're literally questioning his analysis not mine

Nope, I asked why you chose that section of the report as to me it was not being argued anywhere at any point by anybody on this forum. It seems to be your own agenda somewhere for some reason I'm not interested in.

when you say that you think the more important part is x y and z. All I'm asking is, if you think you know better, and would like me to get a response for you, you're going to have to explain to me the basis of that because I'm not prepared to say it's either me doing it or some guy on a message board thinks he knows better, because i can tell you his answer will be very short and extremely sweary

I thought the more interesting part of the report was the mortality rate not the paragraph you chose. Is that so hard to understand?

I'm pleased to see you have a direct line into Stuart and can ask him directly about his report. Does he come into CostCo a lot?

 

[Johnny75]

Closing the smaller hospitals has put extra pressure on the remaining ones, leaving them now unable to cope with an influx of cv-19 patients.

Not the case here as there was no other place for them to go.

 

[Papper]

This is massively off topic, but please don't post conjecture as fact. UK literacy rate is 99% and has been for a very long time.

According to OECD.

English school leavers 'among least literate and numerate in the developed world'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/educati...rate-and-numerate-in-the-developed-world.html

Government statistics suggest that 17 million adults – 49% of the working-age population of England – have the numeracy level that we expect of primary school children.

https://www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/sites/default/files/nn124_essentials_numeracyreport_for_web.pdf

 

[Alan]

Isn't it lovely how we all come together in a crisis?? :icon_lol:

 

[Rui_CostCo]

What I will ask, after watching the clip of Hancock in the HoC in January is did we under estimate the virus. At that point it was classed as a low risk going forward and the NHS was going to cope, no problems whatsoever and by doing that did we leave ourselves wide open and having to race around around trying to get equipment (lets leave to one side when that happened we suddenly became picky who we purchased from).

If that is the case, then you hope the inquiry when this is under control, nails whoever put us on the "it won't hurt us" road

Emerging_infections_summary_Jan-Feb_2020.

30th Jan it was declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern by the WHO
Alarm bells should have been going off on January 9

Early stages
On 9 January 2020, WHO announced that a novel coronavirus was responsible for the outbreak of viral pneumonia first reported on 31 December 2019 in Wuhan City (Hubei
Province), central China. Whilst initially cases were thought to be associated with a wet market in Wuhan, by the end of January it transpired that human-to-human transmission
was occurring outside those directly or indirectly linked to the market. Cases began to be diagnosed outside of Hubei province spreading to all 31 provinces/regions by 30 January.
The first case outside of mainland China was reported on 13 January in Thailand, in an individual who had recently been in Wuhan. On 30 January, the International Health Regulations (2005) Emergency Committee agreed that the outbreak meet the criteria for a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. On 11 February, WHO named the syndrome caused by this novel coronavirus as COVID-19, named using WHO naming best practices. On the same day, the Coronavirus Study Group (CSG) of the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses designated the aetiological agent ‘severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2’
(SARS-CoV-2)

 

[Paul]

Isn't it lovely how we all come together in a crisis?? :icon_lol:

Incarcerate any animal for any length of time and it gets restless, this is just passing the time