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Coronavirus

Reported deaths are not the discovery of a new virus. You are using notifications out of context as justification of your stance.

.....the cause was subsequently identified as a novel coronavirus. Given the increasing warnings of the size of a problem one could create going back almost 15 years, and that Bill Gates had only months earlier run a huge exercise and outlined what action needed to be taken immediately to safeguard against whats happening, alarm bells, whistles and lights should have been going off everywhere.

We underestimated the problem, continued to underestimate it and now we're in a hole.
 
.....the cause was subsequently identified as a novel coronavirus. Given the increasing warnings of the size of a problem one could create going back almost 15 years, and that Bill Gates had only months earlier run a huge exercise and outlined what action needed to be taken immediately to safeguard against whats happening, alarm bells, whistles and lights should have been going off everywhere.

We underestimated the problem, continued to underestimate it and now we're in a hole.

So why didn't the whole world mobilise then?

You are using a bunch of articles to further your own agenda.
 
So this is fun.

Mother in Law currently on her own and has had some heavy dizzy spells and a few falls in the last 24 hours. She is utterly terrified as she is buggered f anything happens to her....so after a morning on the phone they think she may have had a stroke of some sort! Cue her going into panic overdrive and the wife losing it as she now thinks she is going to lose her Mum a few months after her Dad died!

Unfortunatety I think lockdown rules are going to be told to fuck right off today and looks like the wife is going to go and move in with her Mum for a bit (for starters she needs taking to Stoke for a scan in the next 48 hours). Fucking aces.
 
You have to do what you have to do mate, my Moms had one stroke already so a second will not be good,as she has no immune system every day I worry about her but can't go near her, the wife leaves shopping as and when in her hallway for her, my brother still had to take her for her regular blood tests and the hospital was suprisingly empty
 
So this is fun.

Mother in Law currently on her own and has had some heavy dizzy spells and a few falls in the last 24 hours. She is utterly terrified as she is buggered f anything happens to her....so after a morning on the phone they think she may have had a stroke of some sort! Cue her going into panic overdrive and the wife losing it as she now thinks she is going to lose her Mum a few months after her Dad died!

Unfortunatety I think lockdown rules are going to be told to fuck right off today and looks like the wife is going to go and move in with her Mum for a bit (for starters she needs taking to Stoke for a scan in the next 48 hours). Fucking aces.

Fingers crossed for her recovery. Awful news at a time like this :(
 
So this is fun.

Mother in Law currently on her own and has had some heavy dizzy spells and a few falls in the last 24 hours. She is utterly terrified as she is buggered f anything happens to her....so after a morning on the phone they think she may have had a stroke of some sort! Cue her going into panic overdrive and the wife losing it as she now thinks she is going to lose her Mum a few months after her Dad died!

Unfortunatety I think lockdown rules are going to be told to fuck right off today and looks like the wife is going to go and move in with her Mum for a bit (for starters she needs taking to Stoke for a scan in the next 48 hours). Fucking aces.

Very sorry to hear that, can't be pleasant at all
 
Fingers crossed for her recovery. Awful news at a time like this :(

At the moment they ony *think* so fingers crossed they are jumping to the worst case scenario as they can't do the normal checks etc. Not good for the stress levels mind!
 
Have you got any links for that?

German manufacturers didn't receive an order from the German government till March and it was for 10k over the year (FT article).

Separately, the BMJ has social distancing advice at the middle of March. China reported its first deaths on the 10th Jan and locked down in Feb for a month and a half.

The first reliable diagnostic tests - the "WHO tests" which the Trump administration famously refused to use, until it became clear the early US-made tests were too inaccurate - were first completed in Germany on January 16th, developed by a consortium of private sector and university researchers: https://www.dzif.de/en/researchers-develop-first-diagnostic-test-novel-coronavirus-china

On 23rd January, a group (led by virologist Christian Drosten, who is now a leading expert in Germany) published their research into rolling out the tests, which the WHO endorsed. By the end of February more than 1.6 million of the tests had been manufactured in Germany, for a combination of export and domestic use. By mid-March, four million. According to Drosten, Germany is now conducting something like 500,000 tests per week.

Meanwhile, the EU procurement scheme for coordinating bulk-buying a necessary equipment (meaning PPE at first, and then, later, ventilators) first met on January 31st - the UK supposedly missed out on taking part due to "missing an email", but we now know that British officials attended at least four of these meetings (the latest being 13th March): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-buy-covid-19-medical-supplies-say-officials

I think I had my wires crossed on the dates for the actual orders for the ventilators versus when prep work started that would lead to the orders actually going in - strangely, the Economist reports an order of 16,000 back in mid-March, but the FT says 10,000. Not sure whether these are the same order rounded up/down by someone somewhere, or whether they're two separate orders, but you're right that the actual orders came three weeks ago. (That's a really strange one to me considering how much caution they were exercising in everything else!)

You can read all the minutes from meetings of NERVTAG - the sub-committee within SAGE which specifically advises the UK government about the crisis - here: https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/new-and-emerging-respiratory-virus-threats-advisory-group

The 3rd February meeting is where social distancing, widespread wearing of masks, further measures, etc., are first raised as possible policy responses, although it wasn't for another couple of weeks before uncertainty and hedging became replaced with recognition of what was becoming inevitable. There's a real sense in the minutes that the experts didn't want to act too hastily - why? I'm really not sure. These are world experts within their fields, but they seemed to be very reticent to take the warnings of Chinese and WHO scientists too seriously. (Something I've been wondering, but which I haven't seen come up, is what happened with Tamiflu/avian influenza just over a decade ago - when there was a minor scandal that so many governments stockpiled a drug that proved ultimately unneeded.)

There are some other systemic things that seem to be helping in Germany, from what I've been reading. One thing that does seem to have helped Germany is that the Robert Koch Institute has been effective at developing a national response strategy in tandem with the pharmaceutical and biochemical industry, but at the same time the decentralised nature of the healthcare system across the country means getting things like new testing kits out and into the hands of those who can do tests is very efficient - by contrast, bodies like Public Health England have a much wider health remit, so don't have the same capacity and in-house expertise just for epidemiology, while at the same time they're having to micro-manage for too much. Also of note is that the kind of public-private-academic coordination and cooperation that led to that first test being developed in anticipation of its necessity is now something that the UK government wants to try and copy, as of March 27th, when it was announced by Gove.

Conversely, when it comes to chemical reagents and manufacturing ventilators and PPE, I think there's going to be quite an ugly confrontation between southern and northern Europe over who gets priority over which of them get exported...
 
proslo drops the mic and walks offstage...

also;

So this is fun.

Mother in Law currently on her own and has had some heavy dizzy spells and a few falls in the last 24 hours. She is utterly terrified as she is buggered f anything happens to her....so after a morning on the phone they think she may have had a stroke of some sort! Cue her going into panic overdrive and the wife losing it as she now thinks she is going to lose her Mum a few months after her Dad died!

Unfortunately I think lockdown rules are going to be told to fuck right off today and looks like the wife is going to go and move in with her Mum for a bit (for starters she needs taking to Stoke for a scan in the next 48 hours). Fucking aces.
Hope all 3 of you are looking after each other mate. Can understand your wifes perspective. I mentioned before my 1 big fear at the mo is that I could have seen my parents for the last time. If I hadn't been self isolating in the week or so leading up to lockdown, I'd have invited them over here to move in with us. Doubt they would have come, but it might have been better for them.
 
Where do we store PPE? What do we do when it's out of date? Who puts new PPE in place? Who pays for it?

You've said this before and had no answers then either. The whole world has failed if your criteria is why aren't there a million ventilators and 170 million sets of PPE out there in storage.

It's just not realistic.

Nobody's said anything like what you're claiming here. It's not a binary choice between "do nothing" and "keep the healthcare system in pandemic emergency mode 24/7/365".

Of course we all pay for it, obviously, but that's not any kind of gotcha. We make contingency plans all the time - that's a big part of what governments are meant to be for, after all. Is the Thames Barrier a better investment than letting London flood? Is HS2 a better investment than other railway infrastructure spending for long-term growth? Are nuclear weapons worth the security they bring? The point isn't "do you have everything, right now, to handle a global pandemic that hits in the next 24 hours"? It's "do you, with the weeks/months of warning that comes with a pandemic, have the ability to respond to that threat effectively?" Part of that is, yes, stockpiling certain things that you might have to replace regularly because they're not always going to end up used, and figuring out the balance of what is reasonable is also part of this process - but it could also mean understanding how you could manufacture needed supplies rapidly in place of stockpiling, for example. Clearly, there are countries handling what's happening better, and many more handling it worse, and the differences between them are revealing systemic and political cracks that need to be recognised as such and addressed.

You keep reading black-and-white opinions into shades of grey in this discussion, and it's weird.
 
So why didn't the whole world mobilise then?

You are using a bunch of articles to further your own agenda.

They're reports and summaries published by the Government on the Government website, if you want to view them as 'a bunch of articles' then do so. If I was going to really quibble I'd question why no HICD Summaries exist for this year, including Januarys that Decembers states would have more detail and would reveal what the Government knew in January and why Coronavirus was removed from the Highly Infectious Communicable desease list in March.

I'd question why we ignored the World Health Organisation in the second week of February, the 10th to be precise when they said

'Available data on the spread of the virus changes daily. The vast majority of patients around the world is in China, and China’s strategy to contain the outbreak at its epicentre is proving effective, with only a few hundred cases so far in the rest of the world. This is the European Region’s window of opportunity to prepare in every country for a potential introduction of 2019-nCoV. This includes strengthening capacities to find, test and care for patients; to prevent and control infections; and to communicate risks with the public. For the latest situation report see the WHO website.'

You can put all of your trust and be blindly let by politicians, whichever party they represent and the media who have their own agendas if it makes you sleep better at night, but it has the opposite effect on me.

Germany started testing almost as soon as they realised that a potential timebomb had been lit. Italy started trialling a testing strategy the first week in March, Spain went and bought a load off an unlicensed compay in China that didnt work. They account for most of Europes if not the Worlds problem. Germany and Italy got it right by starting to test early, which is why we're being told they've flattened their curve yet still have a huge problem. We didn't so I don't expect us to fair better

China took measures that it would be doubtful people would stand for in this country, America is ignoring Neil Fergusons explicit advice and is pursuing a Mitigation strategy instead of a combination of 4 if not all 5 policies that make up his mitigation strategy in his modelling paper. Given that President Trumps main agenda last night was the war on carribean, sothren and central american drug cartels and intelligence stating that Iran is planning a sneak attack on America because theyre distracted by coronavirus I'd say that is cause for everyones concern. THat's awfully close to WMD's all over again.

'Everyone is shit at this so why should we be any better?' rings a bit hollow. I believed we were World Leaders?

The effect of the initial failures are now bieng magnified and multiplied. This is most deadly communicable desease on the planet. The most deadly. I don't think being concerned about a situation that is threatening to spiral out of control makes me a bad person.
 
Nobody's said anything like what you're claiming here. It's not a binary choice between "do nothing" and "keep the healthcare system in pandemic emergency mode 24/7/365".

Of course we all pay for it, obviously, but that's not any kind of gotcha. We make contingency plans all the time - that's a big part of what governments are meant to be for, after all. Is the Thames Barrier a better investment than letting London flood? Is HS2 a better investment than other railway infrastructure spending for long-term growth? Are nuclear weapons worth the security they bring? The point isn't "do you have everything, right now, to handle a global pandemic that hits in the next 24 hours"? It's "do you, with the weeks/months of warning that comes with a pandemic, have the ability to respond to that threat effectively?" Part of that is, yes, stockpiling certain things that you might have to replace regularly because they're not always going to end up used, and figuring out the balance of what is reasonable is also part of this process - but it could also mean understanding how you could manufacture needed supplies rapidly in place of stockpiling, for example. Clearly, there are countries handling what's happening better, and many more handling it worse, and the differences between them are revealing systemic and political cracks that need to be recognised as such and addressed.

You keep reading black-and-white opinions into shades of grey in this discussion, and it's weird.

Funny how such a lot of words answers none of my questions at all. It's almost like Paul is right, the deeply socialist element on here want people to die from this virus so they can say the government has handled this terribly.

Thus telling the world socialism is great and Tories are scum.
 
They're reports and summaries published by the Government on the Government website, if you want to view them as 'a bunch of articles' then do so. If I was going to really quibble I'd question why no HICD Summaries exist for this year, including Januarys that Decembers states would have more detail and would reveal what the Government knew in January and why Coronavirus was removed from the Highly Infectious Communicable desease list in March.

I'd question why we ignored the World Health Organisation in the second week of February, the 10th to be precise when they said

'Available data on the spread of the virus changes daily. The vast majority of patients around the world is in China, and China’s strategy to contain the outbreak at its epicentre is proving effective, with only a few hundred cases so far in the rest of the world. This is the European Region’s window of opportunity to prepare in every country for a potential introduction of 2019-nCoV. This includes strengthening capacities to find, test and care for patients; to prevent and control infections; and to communicate risks with the public. For the latest situation report see the WHO website.'

You can put all of your trust and be blindly let by politicians, whichever party they represent and the media who have their own agendas if it makes you sleep better at night, but it has the opposite effect on me.

Germany started testing almost as soon as they realised that a potential timebomb had been lit. Italy started trialling a testing strategy the first week in March, Spain went and bought a load off an unlicensed compay in China that didnt work. They account for most of Europes if not the Worlds problem. Germany and Italy got it right by starting to test early, which is why we're being told they've flattened their curve yet still have a huge problem. We didn't so I don't expect us to fair better

China took measures that it would be doubtful people would stand for in this country, America is ignoring Neil Fergusons explicit advice and is pursuing a Mitigation strategy instead of a combination of 4 if not all 5 policies that make up his mitigation strategy in his modelling paper. Given that President Trumps main agenda last night was the war on carribean, sothren and central american drug cartels and intelligence stating that Iran is planning a sneak attack on America because theyre distracted by coronavirus I'd say that is cause for everyones concern. THat's awfully close to WMD's all over again.

'Everyone is shit at this so why should we be any better?' rings a bit hollow. I believed we were World Leaders?

The effect of the initial failures are now bieng magnified and multiplied. This is most deadly communicable desease on the planet. The most deadly. I don't think being concerned about a situation that is threatening to spiral out of control makes me a bad person.

This is drivel.

You are the same as proslo. Just looking for a pop at the government at any opportunity and the drivel above tells me you, like most of us, have no glue what is going on but just having a pop for the sake of it.

The only thing you've highlighted is that the world wasn't ready no matter what hue of party was in government in any country.

But you think we should have been, bravo you.
 
Funny how such a lot of words answers none of my questions at all. It's almost like Paul is right, the deeply socialist element on here want people to die from this virus so they can say the government has handled this terribly.

Thus telling the world socialism is great and Tories are scum.

Last time you didn't have any kind of reasoned comeback in this discussion and instead responded with immature ad hominem, I left it at this - I hope neither you, nor anyone you know or love, is affected by this.

Gonna leave it there again.
 
569 additional hospital deaths reported today.

Matt Hancock will be out of isolation to do today's press conference. Are we all still watching them or is anyone like me becoming bored of the format whereby answers (or non answers) are given to questions and there is no right of reply?
 
Last time you didn't have any kind of reasoned comeback in this discussion and instead responded with immature ad hominem, I left it at this - I hope neither you, nor anyone you know or love, is affected by this.

Gonna leave it there again.

So you don't have any answers to the questions and have decided to strop off. Good one.
 
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