wolves 2 Chelsea 5 verdict

[Johnny75]

I'm struggling to get my head round the logic of those who don't feel the strangely weak recruitment is biting us in the bum already. On the one hand we shouldn't expect any more as we're not a big club and we've only just gone up, on the other hand because we finished 7th we can do it again with the same players (because, of course, the other variables, not to mention the other 19 teams, will all stay the same...)

Yes you are struggling with concepts other than your own views by the looks of things.

 

[Dinowolf]

We really missed Boly, as any team would losing a CB of his quality.

We should have played Bennett. Vallejo was not ready and may never be ready and with a RWB who is still learning the position it was a disaster waiting to happen, and it did.

Saiss is not a PL CB. He is a good DM who can help at the back in an emergency for 30 mins or so.

Coady is not, I repeat not, a CB. His role is to play sweeper behind our CBs. He got himself isolated one-on-one against forwards too many times and looked slow and ponderous. Abrahams had him on toast.

We lost the first half 3-0 but drew the 2nd half 2-2. Doherty has to start in the Prem alongside Bennett, with Boly and Otto on the left, Coady behind and Dendoncker and Neves in front of them.

 

[prawnking]

The rest of your post is you saying the same thing you have for the last day and a half. I get it, you don't think the youngsters are ready, I'm saying I have no idea if they are (and you can't possibly know that either). I understand you will not change your mind on this so I won't bother trying to convince you as it's just your opinion.

I (like a few others) was saying the same thing in the summer and got my head patted by some laid back old timers on here. Fair enough.

But now we've gone 5 games without a win and are in the bottom 3 with some pressure building, you're damn right I'm saying the same thing. As are you. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, but I'm at least looking at our performances, results and options, the counter arguments on here just look like wishful thinking to me.

Our options for changing up the team shouldn't be unproven youngsters, they're supposed to be complementary to a strong squad of 18, which, as has already been pointed out by others, we don't have.

I don't get the complacency: we wouldn't be happy throwing unproven youngsters into a Championship season for long periods (we didn't with MGW and Vinagre as I remember), so why would you be chilled about us potentially doing in the PL because we decided to only make one decent signing?

 

[Johnny75]

I (like a few others) was saying the same thing in the summer and got my head patted by some laid back old timers on here. Fair enough.

But now we've gone 5 games without a win and are in the bottom 3 with some pressure building, you're damn right I'm saying the same thing. As are you. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, but I'm at least looking at our performances, results and options, the counter arguments on here just look like wishful thinking to me.

Our options for changing up the team shouldn't be unproven youngsters, they're supposed to be complementary to a strong squad of 18, which, as has already been pointed out by others, we don't have.

I don't get the complacency: we wouldn't be happy throwing unproven youngsters into a Championship season for long periods (we didn't with MGW and Vinagre as I remember), so why would you be chilled about us potentially doing in the PL because we decided to only make one decent signing?

Why do you keep saying the same thing over and over?

Firstly, I don't think anybody was happy with the summer recruitment, most people thought it wasn't good enough. I don't know if I mentioned it, or you ignored it, but I'm not over enamoured with people's champion Kevvy T and his team.

Secondly, it is not the fault of the afore mentioned recruitment team that our defence has been shocking in the last two games. They are the same players doing entirely different things to last season. This is down to Nuno and his staff to get this right.

You could argue that the two things are connected but then new signings take time to bed in so who's to say they would've learnt the system well enough (Jesus certainly doesn't look like he's learnt it very well). Our biggest miss has been Doc by a country mile, we are a different team with him in it, and I never thought I'd write that.

It is also revisionism to say we didn't recruit well enough at the back when Nuno drops Bennett (many wanted him upgraded and Jesus was that man we all thought), Coady has an absolute stinker and Saiss plays as badly as he has ever played for us. We didn't have any notion that Coady would need replacing this summer and yet he has had the worst start out of all the players in the squad. Boly stunk out the joint against Everton and we aren't replacing him in the short term either.

So to say we haven't recruited at the back well enough is wide of the mark. Granted we should've done better in midfield as Donck is a close second to Coady for the worst start to the season and there we do not have any cover. That is a mistake from the recruitment staff.

 

[playtheace]

Frankly, much as i love him, i think Nuno is reacting to Europe and the amount of games we have, before he needs to.
Leaving out Bennet for tactical reasons on a day when Boly wasn't available made no real sense, and for all the buzz about Adama, we did it with Doc last year and he should still be number one choice for his better defending if nothing else. We have players not up to their best yet, and if we are going to rest anyone, imo it should be them.
but it's early days yet, and we know we can play better and will.

It wasnt tatical was it?
the E&S guy said the club said it was due to some data profiling putting him in a "red" zone where he could have picked up a muscle tear.

 

[Del Woppio]

Now that Doc is back I'm wondering if it might be worth trying Neto/Shabani/Jota as a #10, and giving Neves a rest. The front two are so isolated at the moment, and it looks like we're really struggling to get any of the current CMs far enough up the pitch to support them

 

[PuntsWolf]

It wasnt tatical was it?
the E&S guy said the club said it was due to some data profiling putting him in a "red" zone where he could have picked up a muscle tear.

Red zone from sitting on his arse for 2 weeks? His profile was more left foot / right foot. He wanted a LCB on the bench as he felt Donk would go RCB if injury. The profile argument may be fine (if he’s not starting you aren’t going to bring him on anyway). The issue was that he was left out the side in the first place given we had already lost our best and most aerially strong CB to suspension, and the replacement for Bennett.is awful in the air (amongst other things).

 

[Dinowolf]

It wasnt tatical was it?
the E&S guy said the club said it was due to some data profiling putting him in a "red" zone where he could have picked up a muscle tear.

So why did Nuno say this
https://www.wolves.co.uk/news/first-team/20190914-whole-squad-ready-for-chelsea-says-nuno/

It would explain his disappearance.

 

[Trips]

Yes we might not be able to massively improve, and that’s what’s needed when you have a big strong squad. We don’t have a big strong squad.

End of last season we had 13 outfield players fit for purpose. I’d argue now we only have Cutrone to add to that. 14 is a long way off a strong small squad of 18 supplement by youngsters. at the moment the youngsters are the squad.

There’s an extensive list of players we could have signed who would improve the squad and not kick up a fuss they won’t start. Plus they will get plenty of games anyway with the EL.

I look at players other teams have signed this summer. Trossard, Djenepo, Wilson, Adams. You telling me these wouldn’t have come to us and wouldn’t improve our 18?

Squad of 18 players, not outfield players. So the 14 you've said is actually 16 with Rui and Ruddy added in. MGW can be added to that list also for me that puts us to 17.

We shouldn't be looking to improve the 18, it's the first XI we should be looking to improve. I don't see Trossard, Djenepo or Adams improving our XI. Wilson possibly

 

[PuntsWolf]

Squad of 18 players, not outfield players. So the 14 you've said is actually 16 with Rui and Ruddy added in. MGW can be added to that list also for me that puts us to 17.

We shouldn't be looking to improve the 18, it's the first XI we should be looking to improve. I don't see Trossard, Djenepo or Adams improving our XI. Wilson possibly

We should be trying to improve the 18 when we don’t have 18. You can’t have it both ways.

“It’s impossible to strengthen the 11, they are the best” and “we shouldn’t sign squad players”. So basically your saying we shouldn’t sign anyone.

Instead we have done the exact thing you didn’t want to do, sign squad players. Just on current evidence not very good ones/ ones not ready.

Adding Neto your squad is very optimistic, he looks promising but he’s nowhere near first 11 standard yet, but the sample size is small. MGW isn’t ready/good enough to start at the moment.

Pretty sure It was 18 outfield players anyhow.... but that’s irrelevant.

 

[Johnny75]

Now that Doc is back I'm wondering if it might be worth trying Neto/Shabani/Jota as a #10, and giving Neves a rest. The front two are so isolated at the moment, and it looks like we're really struggling to get any of the current CMs far enough up the pitch to support them

I thought we looked better 3-4-3 in the second half when Nuno changed it and we looked far better with Doc supporting them to do it. When MGW came on and we went more 3-4-1-2 I thought we looked OK but not as potent.

Palace will be very defensive and pack their midfield, especially having been humped by Spurs. Having Woy as an ultra conservative manager they won't want to lose so why not give either formation a go. But Doc is the key.

 

[Trips]

We should be trying to improve the 18 when we don’t have 18. You can’t have it both ways.

“It’s impossible to strengthen the 11, they are the best” and “we shouldn’t sign squad players”. So basically your saying we shouldn’t sign anyone.

Instead we have done the exact thing you didn’t want to do, sign squad players. Just on current evidence not very good ones/ ones not ready.

Adding Neto your squad is very optimistic, he looks promising but he’s nowhere near first 11 standard yet, but the sample size is small. MGW isn’t ready/good enough to start at the moment.

Pretty sure It was 18 outfield players anyhow.... but that’s irrelevant.

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign anyone at all. I'm saying when we sign players, they should be players that improve the XI. What's the point in signing players for the bench when they aren't good enough to come on? I've said we should have been able to find someone to upgrade on Bennett, so how I've said we shouldn't sign anyone is beyond me but whatever. But I don't see the point in spending money on substitutes.

 

[Nando]

Yes we might not be able to massively improve, and that’s what’s needed when you have a big strong squad. We don’t have a big strong squad.

End of last season we had 13 outfield players fit for purpose. I’d argue now we only have Cutrone to add to that. 14 is a long way off a strong small squad of 18 supplement by youngsters. at the moment the youngsters are the squad.

There’s an extensive list of players we could have signed who would improve the squad and not kick up a fuss they won’t start. Plus they will get plenty of games anyway with the EL.

I look at players other teams have signed this summer. Trossard, Djenepo, Wilson, Adams. You telling me these wouldn’t have come to us and wouldn’t improve our 18?

Trossard, Djenepo and Wilson are all wingers. There's a reason we binned off two wingers this summer. I'd have taken Adams, but not above Cutrone who's a better player than I thought we'd be able to get to compete with Diogo/Raul. Would he have joined at 4th choice when Soton are offering a starting berth? Nah. Personally, I don't think forward options are a concern for us now.

I'd certainly have liked an additional central midfielder, as we've got nothing similar to replace energy Donck provides when he has stinkers like in the past 2 weeks, or somebody who can drive forward on the ball.

I do think the squad size debate is exaggerated at times, if you look across the league, barring City (and even they now have issues), no club has armory of talent in all position as it simply isn't feasible.

Liverpool rely on 14/15 players and have no credible options if TAA or Roberton are injured, when their system revolves around them in an attacking sense.

United don't even have a traditional CF on their books and Ashley Young is still their reserve LB/RB.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign anyone at all. I'm saying when we sign players, they should be players that improve the XI. What's the point in signing players for the bench when they aren't good enough to come on? I've said we should have been able to find someone to upgrade on Bennett, so how I've said we shouldn't sign anyone is beyond me but whatever. But I don't see the point in spending money on substitutes.

There’s a middle ground between not an improvement on the first 11 and not good enough to come on. See Cutrone, Patrick.

Trossard, Djenepo and Wilson are all wingers. There's a reason we binned off two wingers this summer. I'd have taken Adams, but not above Cutrone who's a better player than I thought we'd be able to get to compete with Diogo/Raul. Would he have joined at 4th choice when Soton are offering a starting berth? Nah. Personally, I don't think forward options are a concern for us now.

I'd certainly have liked an additional central midfielder, as we've got nothing similar to replace energy Donck provides when he has stinkers like in the past 2 weeks, or somebody who can drive forward on the ball.

I do think the squad size debate is exaggerated at times, if you look across the league, barring City (and even they now have issues), no club has armory of talent in all position as it simply isn't feasible.

Liverpool rely on 14/15 players and have no credible options if TAA or Roberton are injured, when their system revolves around them in an attacking sense.

United don't even have a traditional CF on their books and Ashley Young is still their reserve LB/RB.

I’m not saying we should sign those players. Just saying players of that quality. They don’t play the same system as us so won’t sign the same players...

Read my posts in the summer. I have no issues with the size of the squad. 18 is plenty if they are good enough. My issue is I don’t think the 18 are good enough of this moment. A couple of them might be good enough in a years time but that’s a year too late.

 

[t3ch]

finally had some time to watch my recording of the game last night

woof, shoulda just skipped it!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

A lot of existential crisis stuff here. Wasn't really in the mood to comment over the weekend on the Chelsea game itself but principally our issue is uncharacteristically poor defending, two games in a row. Eight goals leaked and while you can almost always identify an error somewhere, these are all just shit goals (albeit some of them well taken).

It's not to do with Europe, it's not to do with a small squad.

I didn't view three points from those first three games as a poor return necessarily, regardless of how you get them. Given Everton's flakiness and Chelsea clearly being more rattled when we got at them in the second half, we shouldn't be walking away with 0 points and an aggregate of 4-8.

If there were intrinsic failings within our play then you'd think Torino would have shown them up but we won both legs and deservedly so. We need a league win but I'm nowhere near in the mood for panic yet.

The Bennett move on Saturday was odd, Traore still has a long way to go at RWB as shown by the last two games so Doc needs to play if he's back to his normal game (he was good when he came on), Raul shouldn't play after internationals, not when we have a really good striker on the bench.

Coady and Donck are the concerns at the moment, Jota and Neves probably not at their best but nothing like as bad as is being made out.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

finally had some time to watch my recording of the game last night

woof, shoulda just skipped it!

Masochist! My eyes bled first time around! Better second half

 

[slink]

We're far from a surprise package anymore, slink looks down his nose at Everton and Chelsea... mate we've literally just had 8 goals put past us by them! Bit of humility wouldn't go amiss. Everyone knows how we play, everyone knows our personnel. The reason why the summer looks a missed opportunity is that, aside from possibly Cutrone, we have nothing else in our arsenal aside from that first XI.
Moutinho or Neves tired or not firing? Tough. You've got a raw MGW to carry the team. Bennett drops down from being at the very top of his game (where he's perfectly fine)? You've got Miranda part 2 or a futsal rookie. Jota temporarily taken a regressive step? Have to put Neto in, who is a talented kid with not much football to his name and not even necessarily a striker.

Now we were never going to be able to cover all those issues and eventualities, but I'm not sure we covered any of them, again with the probable exception of Cutrone for Raul.

Having a small squad with big quality disparity (which is what it looks like to me right now) is a recipe for a tough old season and probably objective missing. So even though it's right to say that Nuno's selections and the way we play and the form of our best players are responsible for our poor start, have so few other strong options hampers things even further

I’m not looking down my nose at either Everton or Chelsea, i’ve seen both teams at least 3 times this season now and Everton are pretty much the same side as last year. A good side and tough to beat at home but soft away from home and they struggle to pick up wins. Chelsea are not as good as last year either, yeah Mount and Abraham have come in and done well but i think they would rather have Hazard.

Yes those 2 teams stuck 8 past us but not because they looked that much better than us. Until Tomori’s goal on Saturday there was nothing in the game, we then fell apart for 10 minutes and it was game over. We’ve made significant individual errors in those 2 games and in tennis terms they would be unforced, a lot of them have also come from our deepest outfield player and our goalkeeper. When this happens you aren’t going to win games.

I’ve already said i think we should have added a permanent centre half and a ball carrying midfielder but in not adding them we haven’t regressed to how we have performed in the last 2 games, this is down to tactics and confidence. Sides haven’t found us out either, yes Chelsea went to 3 at the back but that wasn’t what won them the game imo and Everton didn’t do anything different either. In the other 2 games where we possibly could have lost both Burnley and United just played as you would expect them to. Our tactics this season have changed, I don’t know why but this is the issue and until Nuno changes it then I can’t see performances changing. We are 5/10 yards deeper, we are disconnected because we are so deep and Jota/Jimenez are on their own and we aren’t pressing like we did either because of this. Just take Neves for example, last year he was pinching balls on the halfway line or over it in some games, Weat Ham and United away come to mind as they both led to goals, he can’t do that this year as he’s holding Coady’s hand.

Just to reiterate i am in no way looking down my nose at teams but the league is much closer at the moment than last year, the top 6 aren’t as far ahead as they were, performances show this and just to add at this point last year there was already 10 points between 3rd and 16th, there’s only 5 this year to us in 19th and 6 to Watford who are bottom. I think we have missed a chance by not investing wisely as I mentioned but i still think we have more than enough if used correctly to compete in the top half and Europe.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We are 5/10 yards deeper, we are disconnected because we are so deep and Jota/Jimenez are on their own and we aren’t pressing like we did either because of this. Just take Neves for example, last year he was pinching balls on the halfway line or over it in some games, Weat Ham and United away come to mind as they both led to goals, he can’t do that this year as he’s holding Coady’s hand.

Tbf this is deliberate - those two goals you mention are when he was playing in a two with Joao. Since we switched formation, Nuno is on record as saying as we brought in an extra midfielder to add another "line" - ie Neves sitting deep. He's been doing it more or less since December last year. Of course I would say he is *too* deep at the moment, he doesn't need to be there and that isn't where he played against say, Arsenal at home.

Agree on your assessment of the league as a whole, everyone below the top two has their flaws, quite openly.

 

[Tony Towner]

I disagree on 3 at the back not being why Chelsea won the game. It protected Alonso and also made Traore have to defend which he was too inexperienced to know what to do with when it probably hadn't been coached during the week. That weakness down their left brought the second and third goals and ultimately the game.