wolves 2 Chelsea 5 verdict

[Deano]

I have pointed to this before but in the season we went down under Mick, people were defending only adding O'Hara on a permanent and Johnson as our only 2 signings. They pointed to the fact that from the previous January we were 11th in the form table, nobody needs reminding what happened that season. I am not for one minute comparing the situations like for like as we obviously have a better manger, better players and a better setup in general now. It does show the dangers of being complacent in the market and standing still though. With the scouting network we have we shouldn't be in a position where we only added 2 first team players to this squad (1 of them doesn't look at all suited to the league we are in.)

We will probably improve by putting the "usual" 5 across the back, but last season as well as our backroom team did in keeping players fit we did get lucky to get through the whole campaign with no long term injuries. Chances are we will need to use these players that played on Saturday as the season goes on and from what we have seen so far it doesn't inspire much confidence.

 

[Trips]

Little game of 'Guess the expert' - Not sure what Europe had to do with Saturday's performance

"As for Wolves' Raul Jimenez, it's hardly surprising their centre-forward looked dead on his feet - he only returned from Mexico City on Thursday morning and expects to bother Chelsea 48 hours later? Wolves can't handle Europe and international breaks. Ditch Europe."

 

[Tony Towner]

Come on... This is the same complacent stance that was all over the summer transfer thread towards the end of the window... It's near-impossible for us to strengthen, we're better than our peers anyway... Now we finished 7th last year so the players should be able to do the same again... That's really not how it works, you're not guaranteed anything based on the previous season unless you're an already established huge club that's been benefitting from PL money for years and years (like Spurs in your example), and even in those cases they make significant team improvements regularly.

We're far from a surprise package anymore, slink looks down his nose at Everton and Chelsea... mate we've literally just had 8 goals put past us by them! Bit of humility wouldn't go amiss. Everyone knows how we play, everyone knows our personnel. The reason why the summer looks a missed opportunity is that, aside from possibly Cutrone, we have nothing else in our arsenal aside from that first XI.
Moutinho or Neves tired or not firing? Tough. You've got a raw MGW to carry the team. Bennett drops down from being at the very top of his game (where he's perfectly fine)? You've got Miranda part 2 or a futsal rookie. Jota temporarily taken a regressive step? Have to put Neto in, who is a talented kid with not much football to his name and not even necessarily a striker.

Now we were never going to be able to cover all those issues and eventualities, but I'm not sure we covered any of them, again with the probable exception of Cutrone for Raul.

Having a small squad with big quality disparity (which is what it looks like to me right now) is a recipe for a tough old season and probably objective missing. So even though it's right to say that Nuno's selections and the way we play and the form of our best players are responsible for our poor start, have so few other strong options hampers things even further

One point missing from this.

It's the squad size Nuno wanted. Apart from potentially another CB the rest is how he wants to operate. We could have kept the likes of Costa and Cav for squad depth, he didn't want to. He wants to work with 18 outfield players, so unless you were thinking we were upgrading Coady or Doc, we signed the number of players we were always going to.

You can say all you have in your post, but none of it was going to happen. You aren't going to overrule the manager who has won you a promotion and 7th place in back to back seasons.

 

[Trips]

One point missing from this.

It's the squad size Nuno wanted. Apart from potentially another CB the rest is how he wants to operate. We could have kept the likes of Costa and Cav for squad depth, he didn't want to. He wants to work with 18 outfield players, so unless you were thinking we were upgrading Coady or Doc, we signed the number of players we were always going to.

You can say all you have in your post, but none of it was going to happen. You aren't going to overrule the manager who has won you a promotion and 7th place in back to back seasons.

A million times this! Nuno has been extremely clear on this point. He wants to work with a small squad and supplement it with U23's. After his first 2 years here, what he wants he gets.

 

[Johnny75]

Come on... This is the same complacent stance that was all over the summer transfer thread towards the end of the window... It's near-impossible for us to strengthen, we're better than our peers anyway...

I've never said that, in fact I'm pretty critical of everybody's mate Kev and the ability of the scouting team. Sometimes some folk accuse me of having an issue...

Now we finished 7th last year so the players should be able to do the same again... That's really not how it works, you're not guaranteed anything based on the previous season

No shit. But it should be an indicator of your squad quality and manager ability. This situation is in no way comparable to Mick who has never been able to manage at the top level. Nuno has shown he can and we should trust his ability as he's earned it.

unless you're an already established huge club that's been benefitting from PL money for years and years (like Spurs in your example), and even in those cases they make significant team improvements regularly.

I'm not sure how PL money would benefit you if you don't spend it on new players as in my example with Spurs. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have got another 2 players in but TT has put it better than me. I'd have got 2 in and shipped at least 2 out personally (Traore being one of them).

We're far from a surprise package anymore

This is such a cliche and is as inaccurate as you get. No team is ever a surprise package. There are teams of analysts and scouts who make sure no team is a surprise.

Slink looks down his nose at Everton and Chelsea... mate we've literally just had 8 goals put past us by them! Bit of humility wouldn't go amiss. Everyone knows how we play, everyone knows our personnel. The reason why the summer looks a missed opportunity is that, aside from possibly Cutrone, we have nothing else in our arsenal aside from that first XI.

So we did improve the squad then? With a top drawer striker no less.

Moutinho or Neves tired or not firing? Tough. You've got a raw MGW to carry the team. Bennett drops down from being at the very top of his game (where he's perfectly fine)? You've got Miranda part 2 or a futsal rookie. Jota temporarily taken a regressive step? Have to put Neto in, who is a talented kid with not much football to his name and not even necessarily a striker.

Not this again. You do not know how these players will play when put into the team. Neto has looked very good in his brief appearances and MGW is very highly rated. I would've liked Kessie to replace Donck and be our box to box midfielder but that didn't happen and that's a failing of of the recruitment team. TT has put it better than me.

Now we were never going to be able to cover all those issues and eventualities, but I'm not sure we covered any of them, again with the probable exception of Cutrone for Raul.

This again is unproven bar the defence where Jesus hasn't looked ready and we are clearly badly out of form.

Having a small squad with big quality disparity (which is what it looks like to me right now) is a recipe for a tough old season and probably objective missing.

It didn't last season and you could argue there was a bigger squad disparity.

So even though it's right to say that Nuno's selections and the way we play and the form of our best players are responsible for our poor start, have so few other strong options hampers things even further

Thanks

 

[prawnking]

A million times this! Nuno has been extremely clear on this point. He wants to work with a small squad and supplement it with U23's. After his first 2 years here, what he wants he gets.

Like I said, working with a small squad is fine if you have the quality. I'm questioning the quality of our recruitment as well as the quantity. None of them look close to displacing the tried and trusted XI. Vallejo, Jordao and Neto aren't going to reduce the burden of EL and PL commitments any time soon by the looks of it. And I don't buy people calling Cutrone top drawer just because it suits their argument when most had hardly seen him play and he hasn't had enough minutes to prove anything yet. And before anyone jumps on that, yes I'm happy he's here and optimistic he'll settle just fine

 

[Trips]

Like I said, working with a small squad is fine if you have the quality. I'm questioning the quality of our recruitment as well as the quantity. None of them look close to displacing the tried and trusted XI. Vallejo, Jordao and Neto aren't going to reduce the burden of EL and PL commitments any time soon by the looks of it. And I don't buy people calling Cutrone top drawer just because it suits their argument when most had hardly seen him play and he hasn't had enough minutes to prove anything yet. And before anyone jumps on that, yes I'm happy he's here and optimistic he'll settle just fine

This squad (minus Cutrone, Vallejo & Neto) finished 7th last season, the quality is there. When we are recruiting we should be buying players that improve our XI, whilst also sticking to our principle of buying younger players (Patricio and Moutinho obviously being anomalies here) - If the players to improve on the likes of Jota, Raul, Neves, Boly aren't available, then what should we do? Just fill the squad with inferior players just to boost numbers?

As for questioning the quality of our recruitment, with the likes of Raul, Jota, Neves, Moutinho, Boly, Patricio, Jonny et al being here, I think they have some credit in the bank. Neto and Jordao haven't been brought in to replace the starting XI (Jordao is with the U23's for a start) - Vallejo and Cutrone will get more game time and become accustomed to our system/style as the season progresses and I can see them both challenging for starting spots.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Small squad is fine. But you can’t honestly think starting Neto, MGW, Vallejo, Kilman isn’t a huge drop off in quality?

I’ve said it before, if we had 18 players but the 7 were near clones of the first team we might be ok. But there’s no way those backups are even in the same bracket. Which is poor recruitment

If the players to improve on the likes of Jota, Raul, Neves, Boly aren't available, then what should we do? Just fill the squad with inferior players just to boost numbers?

This is exactly what we’ve done on current evidence?

 

[Trips]

Small squad is fine. But you can’t honestly think starting Neto, MGW, Vallejo, Kilman isn’t a huge drop off in quality?

I’ve said it before, if we had 18 players but the 7 were near clones of the first team we might be ok. But there’s no way those backups are even in the same bracket. Which is poor recruitment

Obviously they aren't at the level of the players in the starting XI, but 2 points on this.

1 - As a club we aren't at a level where we can keep top players happy who aren't playing regularly.
2 - Nuno wants a small squad of players being supplemented with youngsters, the players you've listed are youngsters.

I agree we could have found a better option at centre-back to upgrade on Bennett, but across the rest of the pitch we will struggle to bring in top quality replacements for some of our players. We've only had one season back in the Premier League.

 

[Del Woppio]

We finished 7th, and it was brilliant - but it was overachieving, just as when Leicester won the league (obvs to a lesser degree) a couple of years back. I don't expect us to be below 13th even as things stand, but we needed more options for the first eleven that aren't a marked reduction in quality, even if we apparently found it impossible to upgrade the eleven

 

[prawnking]

"This is such a cliche and is as inaccurate as you get. No team is ever a surprise package. There are teams of analysts and scouts who make sure no team is a surprise."

Really? Cos I could swear I've seen opposition and Wolves managers (Nuno included) set up a team that plays into their opponents hands or maximises their strengths, and I'm sure we've all commentated as such. Some teams are so good that even if you know everything about them you can't stop them. We ain't there yet.

"So we did improve the squad then? With a top drawer striker no less."

Again, ease off the top drawer hyperboly

"Not this again. You do not know how these players will play when put into the team. Neto has looked very good in his brief appearances and MGW is very highly rated.

This again is unproven bar the defence where Jesus hasn't looked ready and we are clearly badly out of form."

I love how it's unproven when it suits you but Cutrone is top drawer when it suits you too �� Neto looks OK and there's certainly potential, that's about it. I'm not conclusively writing any of them off, or trying to 'prove' anything. All I said was 'I'm not sure we covered those issues'. And I'm not!

"It didn't last season and you could argue there was a bigger squad disparity."

We didn't have the EL last season!

 

[PuntsWolf]

Obviously they aren't at the level of the players in the starting XI, but 2 points on this.

1 - As a club we aren't at a level where we can keep top players happy who aren't playing regularly.
2 - Nuno wants a small squad of players being supplemented with youngsters, the players you've listed are youngsters.

I agree we could have found a better option at centre-back to upgrade on Bennett, but across the rest of the pitch we will struggle to bring in top quality replacements for some of our players. We've only had one season back in the Premier League.

Yes we might not be able to massively improve, and that’s what’s needed when you have a big strong squad. We don’t have a big strong squad.

End of last season we had 13 outfield players fit for purpose. I’d argue now we only have Cutrone to add to that. 14 is a long way off a strong small squad of 18 supplement by youngsters. at the moment the youngsters are the squad.

There’s an extensive list of players we could have signed who would improve the squad and not kick up a fuss they won’t start. Plus they will get plenty of games anyway with the EL.

I look at players other teams have signed this summer. Trossard, Djenepo, Wilson, Adams. You telling me these wouldn’t have come to us and wouldn’t improve our 18?

 

[Johnny75]

We finished 7th, and it was brilliant - but it was overachieving, just as when Leicester won the league (obvs to a lesser degree) a couple of years back. I don't expect us to be below 13th even as things stand, but we needed more options for the first eleven that aren't a marked reduction in quality, even if we apparently found it impossible to upgrade the eleven

Like Neto?

 

[Deano]

Like Neto?

Nobody knows if that applies to Neto, we haven't had anywhere near enough sample size to judge that.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

TBH if we have a good, exciting run in the Europa League, and as long as we don't get relegated, then I am not overly fussed where we finish in the league. It's highly unlikely we will match last year's finish anyway.

If we continue our poor performances in the league and don't start to move up the table then I just hope Fosun don't do something really silly and get rid of Nuno. After what he's achieved, I'd continue to back him whatever.

 

[prawnking]

I'm struggling to get my head round the logic of those who don't feel the strangely weak recruitment is biting us in the bum already. On the one hand we shouldn't expect any more as we're not a big club and we've only just gone up, on the other hand because we finished 7th we can do it again with the same players (because, of course, the other variables, not to mention the other 19 teams, will all stay the same...)

 

[Del Woppio]

I'll grant you he's already played more than I thought he would in his whole wolves career, and he looks tidy, but you wouldn't want to bank on him having a positive impact if he had to start for a month up top

 

[Johnny75]

"This is such a cliche and is as inaccurate as you get. No team is ever a surprise package. There are teams of analysts and scouts who make sure no team is a surprise."

Really? Cos I could swear I've seen opposition and Wolves managers (Nuno included) set up a team that plays into their opponents hands or maximises their strengths, and I'm sure we've all commentated as such. Some teams are so good that even if you know everything about them you can't stop them. We ain't there yet.

Yes, really. No team is a surprise.

Manager's make decisions, sometimes appalling ones that play into their opponents hands. That isn't being surprised, just bad management.

The rest of your post is you saying the same thing you have for the last day and a half. I get it, you don't think the youngsters are ready, I'm saying I have no idea if they are (and you can't possibly know that either). I understand you will not change your mind on this so I won't bother trying to convince you as it's just your opinion.

BTW, I saw Cutrone play for Milan, albeit sparingly, and I was on here saying he would be a superb addition to our setup at the end of last season, a fair few weeks before he was even linked to us. So yes I thought he would be a top drawer signing.

 

[Johnny75]

Nobody knows if that applies to Neto, we haven't had anywhere near enough sample size to judge that.

Delbert said that signing Neto was nothing but a favour to Jorge. He was wrong, I was taking the piss.

 

[AndyWolves]

I wonder if when Nuno wanted us to "be strong" in the transfer market this is what he had in mind.

Dias / Schar (not that we were linked) / Tarkowski were all gettable and would have improved us
Kessie was gettable and would have improved us
Cutrone was a good purchase

We'd be looking at £90m - £110m investment there (it's easy to spend when it's someone else's money)

Not getting Neto, Jordao & Shabani wouldn't have made us weaker if we'd got the above

The U23s we have aren't anywhere near bothering the first team at the moment. Vallejo doesn't look cut out for English football, Kilman won't be a premier league defender.

It may be negative but I think we're in a relegation fight, until we're clear of the bottom three by 6 points then we're in a battle. I'm honestly concerned about this season