Trump

[Alan]

Yikes. I don't even know where to start.

 

[Tredman]

It’s pretty clear who the scumbags are here:

https://twitter.com/elonjames/status/1267462019227279360?s=21

 

[Paul]

It says underneath they were sacked for excessive force......you think ?

 

[Dennisons Wrong Foot]

oh ok.. carry on burning and looting those local communities shops then... im sure that will solve everything.
The video of the Muslim guy having his shop looted and actually helping pick up looters falling out of his shop is heartbreaking, these arseoles couldn't give a shit about any cause or effect...they are fucking scumbags.
Seemingly black lives don't particularly matter when they are murdered on a daily basis by other black folks/gangs.

Very briefly:
Peaceful protest does not always succeed (MLK was murdered for it, Colin Kaepernick thrown out the NFL, etc, etc.)
Violence and looting become more likely when a section of society is unable to become a full stakeholder in that society due to systemic institutionalised oppression.
Black lives do matter. Full stop. Violence within a group does not justify oppression of that group.
Too many police officers in the US have been trained to view their role as warriors rather than as carers.
The most infamous riot in US history started 99 years ago today: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/tulsa-race-massacre-1921-99th-anniversary-trnd/index.html
Just imagine if these protesters had been black:

 

[arklowolf]

Latest news: no work boots stolen in looting spree.
:stirthepot:

 

[Paul]

Very briefly:
Peaceful protest does not always succeed (MLK was murdered for it, Colin Kaepernick thrown out the NFL, etc, etc.)
Violence and looting become more likely when a section of society is unable to become a full stakeholder in that society due to systemic institutionalised oppression.
Black lives do matter. Full stop. Violence within a group does not justify oppression of that group.
Too many police officers in the US have been trained to view their role as warriors rather than as carers.
The most infamous riot in US history started 99 years ago today: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/tulsa-race-massacre-1921-99th-anniversary-trnd/index.html

I abhor violence of all kinds and I don't think it can be justified by either side, peaceful protest can work (Ghandi managed quite well against an even more oppressive regime ) By the way looting is not carried out because people feel disenfranchised, looting is carried out because you can get away with it !

 

[Alan]

Just to be clear, MLK was not murdered for peaceful protesting.

 

[Tredman]

Very briefly:
Peaceful protest does not always succeed (MLK was murdered for it, Colin Kaepernick thrown out the NFL, etc, etc.)
Violence and looting become more likely when a section of society is unable to become a full stakeholder in that society due to systemic institutionalised oppression.
Black lives do matter. Full stop. Violence within a group does not justify oppression of that group.
Too many police officers in the US have been trained to view their role as warriors rather than as carers.
The most infamous riot in US history started 99 years ago today: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/tulsa-race-massacre-1921-99th-anniversary-trnd/index.html

I abhor violence of all kinds and I don't think it can be justified by either side, peaceful protest can work (Ghandi managed quite well against an even more oppressive regime ) By the way looting is not carried out because people feel disenfranchised, looting is carried out because you can get away with it !

I think TT said it quite well above, but as a privileged white male you don’t have a clue why people are doing what they are doing.

 

[Dennisons Wrong Foot]

Very briefly:
Peaceful protest does not always succeed (MLK was murdered for it, Colin Kaepernick thrown out the NFL, etc, etc.)
Violence and looting become more likely when a section of society is unable to become a full stakeholder in that society due to systemic institutionalised oppression.
Black lives do matter. Full stop. Violence within a group does not justify oppression of that group.
Too many police officers in the US have been trained to view their role as warriors rather than as carers.
The most infamous riot in US history started 99 years ago today: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/tulsa-race-massacre-1921-99th-anniversary-trnd/index.html

I abhor violence of all kinds and I don't think it can be justified by either side, peaceful protest can work (Ghandi managed quite well against an even more oppressive regime ) By the way looting is not carried out because people feel disenfranchised, looting is carried out because you can get away with it !

actually, you might be right:

or not:

 

[nimrod]

if you're gonna arm and put thugs in uniform and not only allow them to break laws they're supposed to be upholding but you're also seen to be not dealing appropriately with, or even covering up, their criminal acts then you're creating a problem.
it's a civic duty to protest that sort of behaviour.
that doesn't include looting which is however a typical consequence of law and order breakdown. if you want to allocate responsibility for that outside of the specific looters you have to look at the causes of the law and order breakdown.

 

[Derby Wolf]

I abhor violence of all kinds and I don't think it can be justified by either side, peaceful protest can work (Ghandi managed quite well against an even more oppressive regime ) By the way looting is not carried out because people feel disenfranchised, looting is carried out because you can get away with it !

Are you aware of COINTELPRO?

It was the Counter Intelligence Program, covert and illegal operations were conducted against organisations considered dangerous to the US way of life including MLK and Black Panthers.

Whilst officially disbanded Arun Kundnani among others have identified the same tactics being used against Muslim communities who rally against US foreign policy.

They financed, transported and armed a faction of the MinuteMen to fight and intimidate anti-war protesters. The two biggest aims of COINTELPRO were infiltration and psychological warfare designed to undermine a group and attempt to diminish support for political groups from outside its primary base.

That withstanding, I think it'd be naive to think they haven't got some people agitating to achieve this end right here, right now.

I think you've got to look at the United States as fragmented also, are some states less shit (not a high bar) for Black people? If so are protests might be about solidarity and more peaceful? Are other places more horrific? In which case is there much more anger and rioting and violence is the understandable reaction to decades of police misconduct and mistrust?

Black people are on their own, even the Democrats have been fucking them. In 1997 - under Clinton - the militarisation of the US police came into force with Program 1033 passed, it allowed for the transfer of weapons from The Pentagon to Police Departments across North America.

From 1997 until 2014, $5.1 billion in military hardware were transferred from the Department of Defense to local law enforcement agencies. This included some of the following: armored tanks, high grade rifles, helicopters, grenade launchers, robotic bombs, etc.

Vote them out at the Ballot Box they scream! If only they voted instead of rioting! Vote the people in who will make a difference!

Obama, purported to be an ally of BLM but by 2014 under his administration $787m of weapons were handed over to local policing every year. He did announce it would be reduced in 2015, a drop in the ocean at $459,000,000. With friends like these eh?

Although these weapons weren't exclusively for the use on black people they were undoubtedly in some states disproportionately for use on black people. You are 13 times more likely to be shot in Minneapolis if you're black.

Your boy Mohatama was a latter day pacifist, remember he was one man in a movement. In a struggle for Indian independence it took 90 years and only adopted peaceful protest in the 1920's. Are BLM at the point where they could negotiate or do things peacefully? That's not our place to say. Personally, I have sympathy for them rioting purely in a, if you exclude them from society, from protections from the police and from engaging with politics without interference you can't then expect them to engage with your societal values.

 

[Alan]

Are you aware of COINTELPRO?

It was the Counter Intelligence Program, covert and illegal operations were conducted against organisations considered dangerous to the US way of life including MLK and Black Panthers.

Whilst officially disbanded Arun Kundnani among others have identified the same tactics being used against Muslim communities who rally against US foreign policy.

They financed, transported and armed a faction of the MinuteMen to fight and intimidate anti-war protesters. The two biggest aims of COINTELPRO were infiltration and psychological warfare designed to undermine a group and attempt to diminish support for political groups from outside its primary base.

That withstanding, I think it'd be naive to think they haven't got some people agitating to achieve this end right here, right now.

I think you've got to look at the United States as fragmented also, are some states less shit (not a high bar) for Black people? If so are protests might be about solidarity and more peaceful? Are other places more horrific? In which case is there much more anger and rioting and violence is the understandable reaction to decades of police misconduct and mistrust?

Black people are on their own, even the Democrats have been fucking them. In 1997 - under Clinton - the militarisation of the US police came into force with Program 1033 passed, it allowed for the transfer of weapons from The Pentagon to Police Departments across North America.

From 1997 until 2014, $5.1 billion in military hardware were transferred from the Department of Defense to local law enforcement agencies. This included some of the following: armored tanks, high grade rifles, helicopters, grenade launchers, robotic bombs, etc.

Vote them out at the Ballot Box they scream! If only they voted instead of rioting! Vote the people in who will make a difference!

Obama, purported to be an ally of BLM but by 2014 under his administration $787m of weapons were handed over to local policing every year. He did announce it would be reduced in 2015, a drop in the ocean at $459,000,000. With friends like these eh?

Although these weapons weren't exclusively for the use on black people they were undoubtedly in some states disproportionately for use on black people. You are 13 times more likely to be shot in Minneapolis if you're black.

Your boy Mohatama was a latter day pacifist, remember he was one man in a movement. In a struggle for Indian independence it took 90 years and only adopted peaceful protest in the 1920's. Are BLM at the point where they could negotiate or do things peacefully? That's not our place to say. Personally, I have sympathy for them rioting purely in a, if you exclude them from society, from protections from the police and from engaging with politics without interference you can't then expect them to engage with your societal values.

Well said. Damn.

 

[Paul]

I think TT said it quite well above, but as a privileged white male you don’t have a clue why people are doing what they are doing.

Wow sanctimonious, condescending and patronising all in one sentence, well done !

You've worked in Africa haven't you and you know I've worked in Jo'burg in the late 90's, only a couple of years after the end of Apartheid, the blacks there had literally nothing, they had no human rights and were up until then not even allowed to own property, most of the lads I had working with me were on £3 a week and loved me as I regularly doubled and tripled their wages, but the police there would easily shoot them than complete paperwork, I witnessed a black man begging to be arrested even after the police had said he could go as he knew they would shoot him and claim he was trying to escape.

So don't ever fucking tell me I cannot understand the plight of a group of people, I have witnessed far worse first hand.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Wow sanctimonious, condescending and patronising all in one sentence, well done !

You've worked in Africa haven't you and you know I've worked in Jo'burg in the late 90's, only a couple of years after the end of Apartheid, the blacks there had literally nothing, they had no human rights and were up until then not even allowed to own property, most of the lads I had working with me were on £3 a week and loved me as I regularly doubled and tripled their wages, but the police there would easily shoot them than complete paperwork, I witnessed a black man begging to be arrested even after the police had said he could go as he knew they would shoot him and claim he was trying to escape.

So don't ever fucking tell me I cannot understand the plight of a group of people, I have witnessed far worse first hand.

 

[Tredman]

Wow sanctimonious, condescending and patronising all in one sentence, well done !

You've worked in Africa haven't you and you know I've worked in Jo'burg in the late 90's, only a couple of years after the end of Apartheid, the blacks there had literally nothing, they had no human rights and were up until then not even allowed to own property, most of the lads I had working with me were on £3 a week and loved me as I regularly doubled and tripled their wages, but the police there would easily shoot them than complete paperwork, I witnessed a black man begging to be arrested even after the police had said he could go as he knew they would shoot him and claim he was trying to escape.

So don't ever fucking tell me I cannot understand the plight of a group of people, I have witnessed far worse first hand.

Yes I have. And I still wouldn’t claim to understand how people feel because ‘I have witnessed it’.

 

[Paul]

You just wait till someone you've never met, knows nothing about you or your past has the audacity to insinuate you cannot have empathy for something because of my 'white privilege' , he's assuming I'm white. The 'holier than thou' faction on here really boils my piss sometimes .

 

[Tredman]

Yeah, annoying. Much like assuming you know what a whole diverse and disparate group of people think.

 

[Paul]

Yes I have. And I still wouldn’t claim to understand how people feel because ‘I have witnessed it’.

So unless you are the people in question you can have neither revulsion or empathy ?

 

[Tredman]

So unless you are the people in question you can have neither revulsion or empathy ?

You can feel what you like, but to understand their motives and feelings?

 

[Paul]

You cannot just drop the word 'precisely' in now !