The NFL Thread

[Alan]

Burrow and Chase have practically put the team on their backs to give them a chance. Lamar has MVP sown up after last night though even more so with Allen not playing today.

Tee Higgins slander!

 

[Dire Wolf]

Burrow and Chase have practically put the team on their backs to give them a chance. Lamar has MVP sown up after last night though even more so with Allen not playing today.

Ravens are 3-5 when Lamar throws 30+ passes, Allen is 8-3. Lamar isn't even the MVP on his own team, Derrick Henry is.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Meanwhile the Patriots are playing themselves out of the number 1 overall draft pick by beating the Bills 3rd string defense.

 

[Alan]

Being a great QB does not necessarily mean that your team is set up to sling the ball left, right, and center. The cumulative talent on Buffalo’s offense is definitely higher than Baltimore’s, IMO.

That’s more to add to Lamar rather than detract from Josh, to be clear. Allen rightfully has an argument for MVP but IMV he’s doing it with better pieces around him, has fewer TDs (13 fewer, in fact, which surprised me) and yards than Jackson, a lower completion percentage than Jackson, and more interceptions than Jackson.

While I'm looking at stats, though, I'll give Allen his flowers; dude has only lost 63 yards off sacks all season, which is utterly bonkers (in a good way).

 

[Dire Wolf]

Being a great QB does not necessarily mean that your team is set up to sling the ball left, right, and center. The cumulative talent on Buffalo’s offense is definitely higher than Baltimore’s, IMO.

That’s more to add to Lamar rather than detract from Josh, to be clear. Allen rightfully has an argument for MVP but IMV he’s doing it with better pieces around him, has fewer TDs (13 fewer, in fact, which surprised me) and yards than Jackson, a lower completion percentage than Jackson, and more interceptions than Jackson.

While I'm looking at stats, though, I'll give Allen his flowers; dude has only lost 63 yards off sacks all season, which is utterly bonkers (in a good way).

That would be why the Bills have 2 Pro Bowlers and the Ravens 9 then?

 

[Tony Towner]

It's incredible, but I'd maybe put a bit (slight one) of an asterisk next to it: their defense has been trash, so they've had to throw it a LOT to stay in games and their running game has been iffy so they've relied on their pass game even more.

Don't disagree with that, which is why Hendrickson being the sack leader makes it so unusual. I know sacks aren't everything by any means, but you still wouldn't expect the one with the most to be on a crap defense

 

[Alan]

That would be why the Bills have 2 Pro Bowlers and the Ravens 9 then?

Hardly the measuring stick I would use, personally. I don't have a fucking clue why Zay Flowers got picked, for example; yeah, he's improved over last year, but a Pro Bowler? Nah, not for me.

The gap is most apparent on the offensive lines, IMO, as units. Obviously that plays a part (not all, but a part) in Allen's ridiculously low sack-yards-lost.

Fuck sake, KC had three offensive linemen picked for the Pro Bowl and they've been incredibly poor until two weeks ago.

 

[Tony Towner]

Burrow and Chase have practically put the team on their backs to give them a chance. Lamar has MVP sown up after last night though even more so with Allen not playing today.

The market is currently frozen, but as of yesterday that wasn't the bookies view. I think it'll be Allen, unusual for it not be to from one of the top 2 seeds across both conferences

 

[Alan]

The market is currently frozen, but as of yesterday that wasn't the bookies view. I think it'll be Allen, unusual for it not be to from one of the top 2 seeds across both conferences

He may well get the nod (in part) because Lamar's already got an MVP to his name. Trusting my memory, that has been enough to sway things when the "real" arguments are as hard to split as they surely will be with Lamar and Josh this season.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Hardly the measuring stick I would use, personally. I don't have a fucking clue why Zay Flowers got picked, for example; yeah, he's improved over last year, but a Pro Bowler? Nah, not for me.

The gap is most apparent on the offensive lines, IMO, as units. Obviously that plays a part (not all, but a part) in Allen's ridiculously low sack-yards-lost.

Fuck sake, KC had three offensive linemen picked for the Pro Bowl and they've been incredibly poor until two weeks ago.

At the start of this season everyone predicted the Bills didn't even have enough talent to win their division. Can you even name a pass catcher on the Bills offense? The ONLY reason the Bills are number 2 seed is Josh Allen. End of story. Take him out and the Bills win 4 or 5 games max.

 

[Tony Towner]

At the start of this season everyone predicted the Bills didn't even have enough talent to win their division. Can you even name a pass catcher on the Bills offense? The ONLY reason the Bills are number 2 seed is Josh Allen. End of story. Take him out and the Bills win 4 or 5 games max.

Imo Baltimore have better number 1 and number 2 wide receivers, RB and pass catching Tight End, but I'm just salty on the latter as a drafted Kincaid pretty high in fantasy and he's done the square root of fuck all. I mean Mack Hollins is actually a thing, in the Philaladelphia the best thing the OC could say about him is he lines up in the right place.
Can't agree with Alan that Allen has better weapons, it's pretty clearly Lamar

 

[Dire Wolf]

Imo Baltimore have better number 1 and number 2 wide receivers, RB and pass catching Tight End, but I'm just salty on the latter as a drafted Kincaid pretty high in fantasy and he's done the square root of fuck all. I mean Mack Hollins is actually a thing, in the Philaladelphia the best thing the OC could say about him is he lines up in the right place.
Can't agree with Alan that Allen has better weapons, it's pretty clearly Lamar

Kincaid has been hurt for a fair bit this season.

The other thing about Lamar having better stats than Allen, there have been at least 4 games where Allen hasn't even thrown a pass in the 4th quarter because the Bills have been up by so much.

 

[Alan]

At the start of this season everyone predicted the Bills didn't even have enough talent to win their division. Can you even name a pass catcher on the Bills offense? The ONLY reason the Bills are number 2 seed is Josh Allen. End of story. Take him out and the Bills win 4 or 5 games max.

And that was pretty stupid of them, wasn't it? To your point, no, other than Shakir (whose forename I don't know), no, I couldn't tell you any. But I couldn't tell you any Baltimore receivers not named Zay, either.

Personally I think you're not giving James Cook and the offensive line enough credit (Cook's yardage numbers aren't great, but he's averaging 5 per carry which is a very good return), although that D is obviously in rough shape.

As ever, I'm not trying to tell you Allen is a scrub, but this isn't nearly as clearcut as you're presenting it to be. Lamar is very justifiably going to give some MVP voters a major headache. It's a legitimately tough call.

 

[Tony Towner]

And that was pretty stupid of them, wasn't it? To your point, no, other than Shakir (whose forename I don't know), no, I couldn't tell you any. But I couldn't tell you any Baltimore receivers not named Zay,

Addison is a better player than Flowers imo. You must have heard of him?

 

[Alan]

Kincaid has been hurt for a fair bit this season.

The other thing about Lamar having better stats than Allen, there have been at least 4 games where Allen hasn't even thrown a pass in the 4th quarter because the Bills have been up by so much.

While not an unfair point, Allen has more attempts than Jackson on the season.

The offenses are built to do different things.

 

[Alan]

Addison is a better player than Flowers imo. You must have heard of him?

I'll allow it.

I think Flowers has benefitted a ton from Jackson's form this season, but it certainly doesn't hurt that his biggest problem last season was drops, so it was always possible his numbers would balloon year-on-year.

Do want to clarify that I was not referring just to the skill positions in the Buffalo talent vs Baltimore talent thing. Whatever the Pro Bowl rosters say, Buffalo's offensive line is clearly the better of the two, and you know how I feel about the trenches.

 

[Dire Wolf]

And that was pretty stupid of them, wasn't it? To your point, no, other than Shakir (whose forename I don't know), no, I couldn't tell you any. But I couldn't tell you any Baltimore receivers not named Zay, either.

Personally I think you're not giving James Cook and the offensive line enough credit (Cook's yardage numbers aren't great, but he's averaging 5 per carry which is a very good return), although that D is obviously in rough shape.

As ever, I'm not trying to tell you Allen is a scrub, but this isn't nearly as clearcut as you're presenting it to be. Lamar is very justifiably going to give some MVP voters a major headache. It's a legitimately tough call.

This is the thing though isn't it: Cook is good but he is putting up good numbers largely because defenses are playing to stop Allen. Jackson is putting up good numbers because teams are playing to stop Derrick Henry. That is fact. Defenses are stacking the box to stop Henry, and that opens up the passing attack a ton. On the flip side teams are playing shell coverage with light boxes to stop Allen and so Cook can make hay on the ground.

 

[Tony Towner]

I'll allow it.

I think Flowers has benefitted a ton from Jackson's form this season, but it certainly doesn't hurt that his biggest problem last season was drops, so it was always possible his numbers would balloon year-on-year.

Ignore me, he's Vikings

 

[Dire Wolf]

While not an unfair point, Allen has more attempts than Jackson on the season.

The offenses are built to do different things.

Jackson has fewer attempts because he has Derrick Henry. He is 2-5 when Henry has less than 90 rush yards. Put the game in Jacksons hands by stopping Henry and he hasn't done it. Henry IS the Ravens MVP.

 

[Alan]

Ignore me, he's Vikings

You know, I did have the thought... "Jordan Addison? He's in Minnesota. Must be an Addison in Baltimore I don't know exists."