The F1 Thread

[Deutsch Wolf]

Senna is on ITV tonight at 10.20 - I highly recommend it.

Didn't bother with today's race, just couldn't see the point.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Senna is a superb film. Absolutely love it.

 

[lemonjelly]

The film? Really?
Wasn't released that long ago was it?
That's quick for terrestrial tv.
Would like to watch it though.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Don't miss it. I cannot speak highly enough of it as a piece of film. Desperately sad at the end, but then again, Senna was one of my greatest sporting heroes growing up, so I was always going to find it a bit harrowing.

 

[The Bear]

It's a great film. Thoroughly recommended.

 

[lemonjelly]

Cheers for the recommendations. Enjoyed watching that!

 

[FrankMunro-371]

A question for Nando and others in the know about F1.

How good is Vettel?

 

[Carrotdude]

He's bloody good imo. He's had help of course from having (in general) the fastest car for the last 4 years but so has Webber and he hasn't ever got close to winning the title. Until/unless another car manages to usurp the red bulls then we won't know exactly how the likes of Hamilton would manage in a similar situation, even Alonso hasn't really ever had the luxury of having a much superior car in his career (that I can remember anyway). We will also never be likely to see him in the same car as one of the other top drivers but then that was also true of Schumacher and he's widely regarded as one of the best ever. I'm starting to get Schumacher-esque dislike of him now but that's pretty much entirely down to him being too good and winning every week.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

He's bloody good imo. He's had help of course from having (in general) the fastest car for the last 4 years but so has Webber and he hasn't ever got close to winning the title. Until/unless another car manages to usurp the red bulls then we won't know exactly how the likes of Hamilton would manage in a similar situation, even Alonso hasn't really ever had the luxury of having a much superior car in his career (that I can remember anyway). We will also never be likely to see him in the same car as one of the other top drivers but then that was also true of Schumacher and he's widely regarded as one of the best ever. I'm starting to get Schumacher-esque dislike of him now but that's pretty much entirely down to him being too good and winning every week.

Thank you. Now for the big question. If Vettel was driving for one of the lesser lights, how would he do?

 

[Nando]

You guys know how highly I rate Alonso....

I'm very close to putting Vettel above him in the pecking order.

He's been flawless virtually all season ( a couple of errors he got away with, such as running off at turn one in Canada) and now the car is clearly the best in the pack they're on another level as a package. He was metronomically consistent at the start of the season too and that provided the base for the lead he has now.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

You guys know how highly I rate Alonso....

I'm very close to putting Vettel above him in the pecking order.

He's been flawless virtually all season ( a couple of errors he got away with, such as running off at turn one in Canada) and now the car is clearly the best in the pack they're on another level as a package. He was metronomically consistent at the start of the season too and that provided the base for the lead he has now.

High praise indeed.

 

[Tom Hark]

Well, I've no love for Alonso, but I think he's been the standout driver this year. Put him and SV in identical cars and he'd have wiped the floor with him, imo. But it's impossible to say, these days. Too much car, not enough driver.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Alonso and Vettel are the class of the field, with Hamilton behind both of them. I would love to see Alonso and Vettel in the same equipment just to find out who was the best, but the chances are pretty slim. Too political about "top driver" status on both of their parts to allow them to be equals, sadly.

 

[Nando]

Fernando was better last season. I don't think he'll top it and it must have been hugely demoralising to end up second again. It's very difficult to argue against Seb's achievements even if I can't stand the bloke.

These circulating stories about a return to McLaren are interesting. I'd love to see the look on some of the McLaren fanboys who said he'd had his chance there and wouldn't stand a chance of a return. Whitmarsh can't keep stop salivating about him! The issue was clearly with Ron Dennis, who has a vast history of pissing off his drivers.

Hugely impressed with Grosjean recently. He's finally looking like the talent he was supposed to be. Nice guy too and someone I can see myself following when Alonso departs. I still think Hulk should be off to Ferrari next year, rather than Kimi. A special driver.

 

[Law's Bus]

The thing about Alonso is that he just doesn't have off days, unlike Hamilton. Vettel made lots of mistakes in Japan and would not have won in any other car. Kimi has done a great job all season, and Button is still hugely underrated by most people.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Well, I've no love for Alonso, but I think he's been the standout driver this year. Put him and SV in identical cars and he'd have wiped the floor with him, imo. But it's impossible to say, these days. Too much car, not enough driver.

To be fair, when Mansell, Senna and Prost were winning most races, people said it was the cars, not the drivers. I did not agree then, and do not now. Vettel and Alonso drive the top cars because they are the best drivers.

 

[jlo]

To be fair, when Mansell, Senna and Prost were winning most races, people said it was the cars, not the drivers. I did not agree then, and do not now. Vettel and Alonso drive the top cars because they are the best drivers.

Agree.

Most people seem to have forgotten about him but I still really highly rate Bottas in his crap Williams car. Give Bottas and Hulkenburg top drives next year and I think you'll find 2 more top drivers currently in our field. Hamilton has a lot to prove in the next year, and I suspect Riccardo will give us a better idea of how good Seb is (I expect Riccardo to come close)

 

[Tom Hark]

To be fair, when Mansell, Senna and Prost were winning most races, people said it was the cars, not the drivers. I did not agree then, and do not now. Vettel and Alonso drive the top cars because they are the best drivers.

S, you clone Vettel and put him in a RB, Ferrari, Merc and Lotus. Which one do you think will win?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

RB every time this season, of course.

 

[Tom Hark]

RB every time this season, of course.

Well exactly, and quite possibly for the previous three seasons too. Of course, that's not to say he wouldn't have come out on top if we could follow the balancing hypothesis and put every driver in a RB, but how can we even guess, let alone know? I'm sure, though, when several outstanding drivers are in competition, the car really does make a difference. The number of points scored by fairly average no. 2 pilots such as Frentzen, Barrichello, Irvine, Coulthard etc. illustrates the point. Massa came within a corner of the title, but you'll have a job to convince me he's ever been anything like the best driver in a race, let alone over a season. Was Button the best driver during the season he won the championship, or simply a good one in the best car? To my mind, the best drivers are those who get something out of their cars they've no right to. I think Alonso has done that this year, as has Ricciardo and possibly the Lotus boys (definitely at Suzuka). Arguably Hulkenberg too, although the parallel if less spectacular improvement by his team mate could indicate an engineering advance.

Vettel is, of course, at a disadvantage in this argument, having the best car the best car to start with, but although he's undoubtedly the best tactician, and has the single-minded ruthlessness of all champions, I'm doubtful whether, purely as a driver, he's 4-in-a-row better than everyone else on the grid.