Summer 2021 transfer window

[prawnking]

Unlike you to be negative prawn?

I think if we ignore some of the struggles and, frankly, questionable choices we've made in the transfer market in an attempt to be 'positive' above all other considerations we're in danger of expecting an unrealistic amount from the management and recruitment team.

I can't in all honesty say I believe we're going to solve these first team problems in one transfer window when we've struggled to do that since we kicked off in the PL. The patterns and precedents are there to see.

 

[YoungWolf]

I think the one truly bad window we had was obviously the one with Vallejo and Cutrone. We got those ones badly wrong. Since then:

Last January we added Podence, who has been a good signing IMO. We signed Campana but I don't think he was ever intended for the first team.

Last summer will rage on. I think we did some pretty good business that just isn't going to be immediately clear for obvious reasons. I still think Semedo is an improvement on Doc but that will go on forever. Marcal is a good footballer just always bloody crocked (but we knew that when signing him, so that's on the club).

Then last month we did very well to sign a player that would be good enough to go straight into the first team, that one gives me hope, but it's a pretty mixed bag so you can see why we might not be convinced we'll get a 100% hit rate in the summer.

I think there are enough players out there that if we are targeting a proper first choice centre back and centre midfielder we can get those right though. Spiers has already indicated that a centre back is a priority.

 

[Tony Towner]

I'm not sure you can really amend your opinion of last Summers recruitment from what it was at the time, as it was essentially about the future. Semedo was the only player signed with the intention of going into the first 11 medium term with Marcal a short-term gamble which failed. If you supported or criticised that strategy at the time nothing has really happened to challenge that view.

 

[prawnking]

Thanks for putting your POV's across Del / YW rather than just being dismissive.

I think it's clear that we've struggled to find successful first XI solutions since that first PL window. IMO you could only really count Neto as an unqualified success whose place in the team looks close to unassailable.

Fortunately, up until this season the first XI was pretty good and Nuno has generally been great at working with what he has, and has pushed the likes of Coady, Doc, Bennett and Saiss to the limit of their natural ability. Combining that with solid talent like the Portuguese lads, Adama (at times) and Raul has meant we've been very successful. The challenge now is putting together a team to push on from here, and I think that's a big challenge in one window (which is why I wouldn't necessarily be ruling WJ out just now)

 

[Carrotdude]

Josh DaSilva would be brilliant but we don’t sign players like that. It’s a shame but we don’t seem to want to look for championship talent, I guess it’s too expensive compared to looking abroad. We should have been trying to get Eze or even Watkins but they’re not the kind of players we look at.

 

[prawnking]

I'm not sure you can really amend your opinion of last Summers recruitment from what it was at the time, as it was essentially about the future. Semedo was the only player signed with the intention of going into the first 11 medium term with Marcal a short-term gamble which failed. If you supported or criticised that strategy at the time nothing has really happened to challenge that view.

I don't think recruitment exists in isolation though.

For a start, it's fair for us to have thought that at least one of the young lads (who all arrived with not inconsiderable hype) would have made decent first team impact so far (they haven't really), and to expect a big signing like Semedo to have contributed much more.

Gambling almost exclusively on future talent implies that the here and now is secure. It hasn't looked like it this season; most of our senior pros (even Raul for his 8/9 games) have looked below par for much of the season and have had no senior help to inspire or carry the load, and meanwhile the manager has decided to push them way out of their comfort zone with a playing style shift to boot.

I know some will baulk at the Villa comparison, but look what a difference players like Watkins and Barkley have made to Villa in terms of getting more out of the players around them and offering options. We look stale by comparison, the only options chucking Vitinha or Fabio in at the deep end.

 

[Tony Towner]

Josh DaSilva would be brilliant but we don’t sign players like that. It’s a shame but we don’t seem to want to look for championship talent, I guess it’s too expensive compared to looking abroad. We should have been trying to get Eze or even Watkins but they’re not the kind of players we look at.

I said this about a week ago regarding the Championship. Although there is a premium it's not like we are picking up cheap options from abroad. Eze went for less than Vitinha would cost for example. Now i doubt we could have got him because apparently he didn't want to leave London, but the point stands

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't think recruitment exists in isolation though.

For a start, it's fair for us to have thought that at least one of the young lads (who all arrived with not inconsiderable hype) would have made decent first team impact so far (they haven't really), and to expect a big signing like Semedo to have contributed much more.

Gambling almost exclusively on future talent implies that the here and now is secure. It hasn't looked like it this season; most of our senior pros (even Raul for his 8/9 games) have looked below par for much of the season and have had no senior help to inspire or carry the load, and meanwhile the manager has decided to push them way out of their comfort zone with a playing style shift to boot.

I know some will baulk at the Villa comparison, but look what a difference players like Watkins and Barkley have made to Villa in terms of getting more out of the players around them and offering options. We look stale by comparison, the only options chucking Vitinha or Fabio in at the deep end.

I'm broadly in agreement, just think it's pointless having the discussion again as nothing has changed. You either thought at the time we sacrificed the short and medium term for a longer term gamble, or you thought it was smart business getting the cream of European talent in before Brexit. Wherever you sat on that you'll still be there

 

[sycophantia]

Must admit I was very happy with our Summer recruitment at the time, seemed very sensible, we had a settled first 11 which changed very occasionally so to bring in young exciting prospects who could gradually be integrated was a no brainer imo, plus we had Jonny crocked and bought in Marcal as a stopgap...perfect, obviously the injuries to key players poleaxed that and now it looks a bit arrogant.......hindsight aye?

 

[prawnking]

I'm broadly in agreement, just think it's pointless having the discussion again as nothing has changed.

I think what's changed is that we've since had 60% of a PL season unfold so surely some element of the unknown that you have in the summer has gone somewhat.

My issue isn't with the young lads anyway, it's more that we don't have a great recent track record when it comes to buying 'ready-made' players for the here and now. We pretty much gave up trying to upgrade the defence and bolster the central mid, and even Neto was a teen when we signed him.

In fact it's an almost non-existent track record so very difficult to gauge (hence my caution). Since we kicked off in the PL it's only really Semedo (and possibly Vallejo) who we've bought to go straight in.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

After a great debut RAN has looked nothing special. Hardly taken a player on - just advances towards an opponent and turns and passes back - and not particularly strong in the tackle. He’s quick and will no doubt improve as he gets stronger and gets more experience but with Jonny back we could get adequate cover that in the next couple of seasons will be at least as good as RAN for a lot less than £20m.

 

[AndyWolves]

After a great debut RAN has looked nothing special. Hardly taken a player on - just advances towards an opponent and turns and passes back - and not particularly strong in the tackle. He’s quick and will no doubt improve as he gets stronger and gets more experience but with Jonny back we could get adequate cover that in the next couple of seasons will be at least as good as RAN for a lot less than £20m.

It's about current ability Vs potential ceilings. If we think RAN will be one of the best left backs in the world then we keep him. We've had long enough to look at him to know now.

 

[AndyWolves]

Re: Josh DaSilva - he's 22 and this is his breakout season so it's worth remembering that when evaluating young players. Arsenal let him go for nowt I think

 

[sycophantia]

After a great debut RAN has looked nothing special. Hardly taken a player on - just advances towards an opponent and turns and passes back - and not particularly strong in the tackle. He’s quick and will no doubt improve as he gets stronger and gets more experience but with Jonny back we could get adequate cover that in the next couple of seasons will be at least as good as RAN for a lot less than £20m.

yeah I've been a bit underwhelmed tbh, after watching him against PSG I was very excited but for me he looks a bit 'rabbit caught in the headlights'. Not going to write him off yet but he needs to step it up a bit I think. Vitihna is a bit lightweight but looks to have 'something' always seems like he's looking for a pass forwards if possible. I'm a bit surprised a few are already saying Jose doesn't look good enough or will be too expensive.....after 2 games! Personally I think he's exactly what we need i.e. back up for Raul when he's injured/suspended/knackered, fits in perfectly along with a developing Silva imo. Obviously it depends on if he's happy to play second fiddle to Raul, also how Nuno manages the pair of them while making sure Silva gets enough first team experience.

 

[Templeton Peck]

I think the strategy of having proven first team level players with youngsters with a high ceiling as back up is a sound one. Better that than late 20 somethings after a last big contract. I'd be signing RAN and Vitinha.

Ideally I'd like to see Jose come in too so we can send Silva on loan but a lot depends on his price tag. I'd be looking to sell MGW and possibly Marcal, Kilman or Saiss. Marcal is quality but he's an injury prone player. We need to bring in at least one quality CB and have Coady and someone else as backup.

Further forward I'd like us to go for either a wide forward (Costa?) or a 10 so we can use Podence out wide.

 

[prawnking]

I think the strategy of having proven first team level players with youngsters with a high ceiling as back up is a sound one. Better that than late 20 somethings after a last big contract.

We aren't just stuck with a choice between 18/19 year olds or 29/30 year olds though, are we?

 

[Jinky]

yeah I've been a bit underwhelmed tbh, after watching him against PSG I was very excited but for me he looks a bit 'rabbit caught in the headlights'. Not going to write him off yet but he needs to step it up a bit I think. Vitihna is a bit lightweight but looks to have 'something' always seems like he's looking for a pass forwards if possible. I'm a bit surprised a few are already saying Jose doesn't look good enough or will be too expensive.....after 2 games! Personally I think he's exactly what we need i.e. back up for Raul when he's injured/suspended/knackered, fits in perfectly along with a developing Silva imo. Obviously it depends on if he's happy to play second fiddle to Raul, also how Nuno manages the pair of them while making sure Silva gets enough first team experience.

Completely agree with your comments re; Jose. I find myself continually chuckling at the goalposts being moved on here, when it comes to the terms of a debate. Like I said yesterday, it seems like forever and a day that we have been getting told it's "extremely difficult" to sign a back up striker - and excuses have been made for us not doing so, window after window. We finally get one in who looks half decent, and he's written off by those same people after literally 3/4 games! I mean - those people are entitled to their opinions. I just hope they can appreciate the irony of it.

Also agree with you on RAN. He hasn't kicked on anywhere near as much as I hoped/thought he would, particuarly with Jonny out of the picture for so long. I get he is young - and that will bring inconsistent performances - but at the moment the earlier assessment of him (by Wilf, I think?) is spot on. He runs forward - gets a defender in front of him, stops and passes it back. Very rarely has he taken on his man. He was billed as having "one of the best deliveries in Europe for a young player" when he arrived - I don't remember him hitting more than one decent cross. He's weak in the tackle - has been rag-dolled off the ball on more than one occasion, leaving us exposed (I also remember on one occasion this happened and he got very lucky to get a free kick when the opposition ran through on goal after outmuscling him). He's no where near ready, IMO, but also needs to show some huge improvement when given the opportunity. There's definitely a player in there, but having Jonny back at the weekend showed everything that we have been missing in literally 45 minutes.

I think we'll sign Vitinha. He looks like a quality player and he has room to grow in to different roles (10, advanced midfielder, defensive midfielder playing the long passes).

Also agree with Templeton in that I would be letting MGW go in the summer. Doesn't fit our system, questionable attitude and done nothing of note when given the opportunity. The only issue with this is, I don't think we'll get anywhere near the fee we are paying out for Vitinha for MGW.

 

[Trips]

WJ hasnt been signed as a back up though has he? Hes been signed on loan until the end of the season as Raul's replacement, so is here as 1st choice currently.

 

[Derby Wolf]

We aren't just stuck with a choice between 18/19 year olds or 29/30 year olds though, are we?

Exactly, it isn't a binary this or that, we also shouldn't turn our nose up at those older players based on age alone, Klopp signed Milner at 29. I'd trust Nuno/the club should do their diligence on a prospective players character too, especially given the noises made about the no dickheads policy.

 

[YoungWolf]

Well we have signed Marcal/Jose pretty recently so clearly we aren't turning our nose up