REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deleted Cyber]

I think we have to accept we cant and wont and should not force people into work. However those who do work and work hard should be rewarded. Hence why removal of a welfare state and a replacement BUI should be investigated, but I am repeating myself sorry.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

There is no one measure that is going to help re stabalise the country post brexit. There needs to be a number of radical and different choices tabled over the next 2 years and hopefully implemented. I cant see it with Tories but there.
BUI
New PR vote?
Immigration control systems for current EU members
Fast track work permit scheme for essential workers.
Publication of exact benefits for Scoitland staying with the Union and a proper costing of how much they will have to pay to leave and then join the EU- just to get rid of Sturgeon once and for all.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

You mean like the pamphlet the UK government sent out pointing out that leave was shit, which THM has moaned about 4 billion times at the last count?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

You mean like the pamphlet the UK government sent out pointing out that leave was $#@!, which THM has moaned about 4 billion times at the last count?

Pamphlet? What pamphlet?:fished:

 

[thehistorymakers]

That's the individual governments problem as has been pointed out 65454687790843 times.

Made possible with open borders.

 

[Penk Wolf]

How? Please explain.

 

[thehistorymakers]

How? Please explain.

Open borders, means that people come from poorer EU countries and often do the work cheaper than people who live in the same area as the farmland. So the landowners often get EU handouts and cheaper labour, while the people who live in the same area as the land, with mortgages to pay and kids to feed are overlooked.
Great for the landowners, not good for the local people.

Before you say, they should work for less, they wouldn't be able to pay their outgoings, with less salaries. It is a win win, for the rich landowners and desolation for local communities.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Open borders, means that people come from poorer EU countries and often do the work cheaper than people who live in the same area as the farmland. So the landowners often get EU handouts and cheaper labour, while the people who live in the same area as the land, with mortgages to pay and kids to feed are overlooked.
Great for the landowners, not good for the local people.

Before you say, they should work for less, they wouldn't be able to pay their outgoings, with less salaries. It is a win win, for the rich landowners and desolation for local communities.

Open borders is pretty irrelavent though, as it would still happen without open borders.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Open borders is pretty irrelavent though, as it would still happen without open borders.

No, I don't think it would.

 

[Trips]

I'm sure we've been through this.

Fallacy of correlation and causation, just because there are open borders it doesn't mean that is why people were exploited. Workers were exploited long before the EU.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I'm sure we've been through this.

Fallacy of correlation and causation, just because there are open borders it doesn't mean that is why people were exploited. Workers were exploited long before the EU.

I actually see first hand what I am talking about. I see the people from the small towns and villages, whose families have collected the harvest for centuries, overlooked for cheaper labour from Romania etc. The women who work in the restaurant in the village near my land are Romanian, most of the building labour in the village close to my land is Romanian too. It has nothing to do with Spanish people not wanting to work and everything to do with cheap labour.
Do I blame the Romanians, of course not. Do they come because of open borders in the EU, of course they do.

 

[Trips]

I actually see first hand what I am talking about. I see the people from the small towns and villages, whose families have collected the harvest for centuries, overlooked for cheaper labour from Romania etc. The women who work in the restaurant in the village near my land are Romanian, most of the building labour in the village close to my land is Romanian too. It has nothing to do with Spanish people not wanting to work and everything to do with cheap labour.
Do I blame the Romanians, of course not. Do they come because of open borders in the EU, of course they do.

I'm not disputing any of that. If you say people from Romania are there collecting the harvest, I believe you. I'm not even going to dispute the cheap labour aspect of it (even though I'm not sure how you know what they earn)

The thing I'm disputing is this idea that it's all the EU's fault.

EU have open borders - Romanians work in Spanish fields - Spanish farmers pay the Romanians less money - Spanish people don't work in the fields. You then pin this on the EU. Why?

Post hoc fallacy - Just because B (Spanish people no longer work in the fields) comes after A (EU open borders) doesn't mean that is the reason why. You are basing your theory on the timescale of events (B happened after A), and no other factors.

 

[Penk Wolf]

No, I don't think it would.

You're right, because I've never seen loads of Africans at the holiday resorts.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I am really really struggling to understand why blaming EU governance for problems caused in Spain by eastern european nationals which is almost certainly a fallacy of logic anyway has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with a British EU brexit vote.

I don't frankly give a tinker's cuss what happens in Spain on this point. It is of zero relevance to a UK at the other end of the EU and not part of Schengen, therefore already having much stronger border controls, not to mention 20 miles of deep water in the way.

 

[visage]

So, the first spanner in the works:

Ireland will block any agreement on the terms of the U.K.’s departure from the European Union that doesn’t keep open its borders with its closest neighbour, Prime Minister Enda Kenny said.

Border controls between Northern Ireland, which is part of the U.K., and the south, a member of the euro area, largely melted away in the 1990s, leaving shoppers and traders free to cross back and forth. Concerns have been raised that controls will have to be reintroduced after Brexit.

After the U.K. leaves, Ireland’s 310-mile (500-kilometer) border running from near Derry in the north to Dundalk in the south will form the EU’s land border with the U.K.

“We are not returning to the borders of the past, ” Kenny, 65, said in an interview Friday with Bloomberg Television in New York. “It is a political challenge to deal with it. It will have to happen because I won’t sign for anything else.”

On the size of the U.K.’s bill when it departs the EU, Kenny said the figure is up for debate. Britain should be charged about 60 billion euros ($64 billion) when it leaves, Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern said last month, becoming the first EU leader to put a value on the U.K.’s Brexit bill.

“There are a range of assessments of what that bill might be,” Kenny said. https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...dium=social&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

So thats just one country with a special demand that needs to be met. Only 26 to go....

 

[The Saturday Boy]

So, the first spanner in the works:


So thats just one country with a special demand that needs to be met. Only 26 to go....

Makes a mockery of our claims to have a strong negotiating hand. The EU needs a deal that all members agree on, we have said we will leave with no deal.

Shit Creek and the paddle shop only accepts euros.

 

[Papper]

Do you not think increasing minimum wage just means that inflation will increase and the net will be status quo?

Not really when for many there isn't that much difference between benefits and the low paid work when in effect you are transferring the taxpayers obligation to subsidise low wages to the business

 

[thehistorymakers]

I am really really struggling to understand why blaming EU governance for problems caused in Spain by eastern european nationals which is almost certainly a fallacy of logic anyway has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with a British EU brexit vote.

I don't frankly give a tinker's cuss what happens in Spain on this point. It is of zero relevance to a UK at the other end of the EU and not part of Schengen, therefore already having much stronger border controls, not to mention 20 miles of deep water in the way.

That is where I differ from you, I never looked at my own personal circumstances, I always looked as the the EU as a whole. It does bother me that billions of EU money ( taxpayers money) has been wasted in the south of the EU. It does bother me that low paid workers in those countries and indeed our own are worse off than before we joined the EU. It also bothers me that people in the place that they were born can't get a job and companies are employing people from other countries before the people who live in those areas and depend on agricultural work, or whatever local work there is.
I have never sat in a cosy corner and thought well I'm ok, so therefore the EU is ok.

 

[visage]

Its hard to escape the idea that we've become a rump democracy.

A demagogic government.
A pliable electorate that gives soundbites the same consideration as considered analysis.
An opposition rendered impotent by internal divisions and fear.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I don't get the Irish border issue. Just make Irish citizens a special case with freedom of movement and right to live and work in the UK and vice versa a reciprocal arrangement for Brits in Ireland. Its not hard its noit a deal breaker for the EU and it recognises how close Britain and Ireland are. One of the easier hurdles and a good precedent to set if the wee free men and Nicola insanely vote to leave the union and increase there own tax burdern 3 fold. I can't see it. Wee free men are canny when it comes to the vasvaslue of a pound