REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deutsch Wolf]

It's a unique situation really, it's the equivalent of a political party winning an election but none of their manifesto actually ever coming close to applying and everyone knows that. Despite that it's still poor that a specific Brexit department was set up months ago and they have come up with precisely nothing to date. How long is that going to last, the rest of 2016? A year on from the referendum?

Same goes for May as PM really, she's had an easy ride so far on the basis of not being Cameron and ditching most of the appalling people he allowed to run riot, but at some point the Government has to actually do something. We've had complete political paralysis for going on for 12 months now, absolutely nothing is getting done.

 

[So Long Architect]

It's a unique situation really, it's the equivalent of a political party winning an election but none of their manifesto actually ever coming close to applying and everyone knows that. Despite that it's still poor that a specific Brexit department was set up months ago and they have come up with precisely nothing to date. How long is that going to last, the rest of 2016? A year on from the referendum?

Same goes for May as PM really, she's had an easy ride so far on the basis of not being Cameron and ditching most of the appalling people he allowed to run riot, but at some point the Government has to actually do something. We've had complete political paralysis for going on for 12 months now, absolutely nothing is getting done.

In some ways, I don't mind that. Considering that whenever Tory governments *do* something it tends to be something awful that I fundamentally disagree with, I'm reasonably happy for the lot of them to be paralysed (politically speaking, obviously).

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We need some meaningful step backs from austerity. Saying that you're going to rip up all of Gideon's brilliant work is lovely to hear and all that, but I'd like to see some actual action on that one.

 

[So Long Architect]

We'll be waiting a long time, I think. Probably until just before the next G.E. when they can lob out some vote-grabbing bribes. Since Conservatives, on the whole, do not see any virtue in equality or social justice, there will be no great desire to improve anyone's lot before they absolutely have to and it's of benefit to themselves in the form of holding onto power.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

If in doubt do nothing. At times it can be sound advice. Brexit is going to happen. It is just a mastter of when. Therefore the brexit team must ensure there is as minimal negative impact as possible and as much agreement with others under pins that exit to maximise opportunities. That requires extensive consultation and negotiation and the team need to have many bases covered. It was obvious that it is not in Britain's interest to rush anything when the result came through. It may be in the interest of others or other political aims but not Britain's. The issues of Scotland Irish borders, immigration, borderr control all require agreements,systems, processes and personnel to make happen and they were not created overnight. The Olympic games had around 7 years to prepare and plan to deliver as an example and that team had previous experiences to go on. Brexit is a one off. It will take a few years not a few months. Twas ever thus

 

[Johnny75]

We need some meaningful step backs from austerity. Saying that you're going to rip up all of Gideon's brilliant work is lovely to hear and all that, but I'd like to see some actual action on that one.

It has been the summer to be fair and absolutely nothing gets done over the summer. That said, I don't expect a lot to be done either way this side of next May when the Brexit pressure will be ramped up.

SLA - As many people do not believe in equality (after all people are constantly being told to be individuals and express themselves) why should the Conservatives go against any of their values? I'm not sure your comment on Social justice encapsulates all Conservatives but this lot in power certainly don't give a shit and that is appalling.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

We'll be waiting a long time, I think. Probably until just before the next G.E. when they can lob out some vote-grabbing bribes. Since Conservatives, on the whole, do not see any virtue in equality or social justice, there will be no great desire to improve anyone's lot before they absolutely have to and it's of benefit to themselves in the form of holding onto power.

Politically I would be looking at what happens with labour. If Corbyn comes back as leader they are fucked for a decade in most analysts views. I would then hope to see those moderate ukip voters and the centre labour voters having something in common to vote for. That would be the old social Democratic party. Now a resurgence there would make it a bit more interesting come election time.

 

[So Long Architect]

It has been the summer to be fair and absolutely nothing gets done over the summer. That said, I don't expect a lot to be done either way this side of next May when the Brexit pressure will be ramped up.

SLA - As many people do not believe in equality (after all people are constantly being told to be individuals and express themselves) why should the Conservatives go against any of their values? I'm not sure your comment on Social justice encapsulates all Conservatives but this lot in power certainly don't give a shit and that is appalling.

No, I agree, Johnny, that's why I added the "on the whole". I'm sure there's a little old lady somewhere who votes Tory but would like to see the world run along more equitable lines - I just haven't met her!

I'm not saying they should go against their values (though my obvious caveat to that is that I think their values are utterly despicable and wrong) - people voted for this through the system we have and the rest of us have to suck it up while it lasts, albeit with the right to complain, protest, strike and whatever else we fancy doing peacefully within the law.

My point is that you might as well ask my labrador not to eat the chocolate cake I left on the table as ask a Conservative to do something for the benefit of others.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

No, I agree, Johnny, that's why I added the "on the whole". I'm sure there's a little old lady somewhere who votes Tory but would like to see the world run along more equitable lines - I just haven't met her!

I'm not saying they should go against their values (though my obvious caveat to that is that I think their values are utterly despicable and wrong) - people voted for this through the system we have and the rest of us have to suck it up while it lasts, albeit with the right to complain, protest, strike and whatever else we fancy doing peacefully within the law.

My point is that you might as well ask my labrador not to eat the chocolate cake I left on the table as ask a Conservative to do something for the benefit of others.

34% of the country voted conservative yet we don't get the protests from the 66% who didn't vote for them. The remain camp need to make the best of it. Who knows in 20 years we may be in a position to be a fully integrated member of the EU with a single currency open borders ,freedom of movement, kilograms and kilometres and driving on the right. However until then we have voted with 52% that the current direction and membership is not for us. Concentrate on removing the Tories is my advice. The majority is already out there

 

[So Long Architect]

34% of the country voted conservative yet we don't get the protests from the 66% who didn't vote for them. The remain camp need to make the best of it. Who knows in 20 years we may be in a position to be a fully integrated member of the EU with a single currency open borders ,freedom of movement, kilograms and kilometres and driving on the right. However until then we have voted with 52% that the current direction and membership is not for us. Concentrate on removing the Tories is my advice. The majority is already out there

Yeah, I was making a wider point probably better suited to the Theresa thread. I've long since moved on from the Europe thing. I'll start thinking about it again if and when anyone decides to actually make us leave.

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

Britain voted for Brexit. which since we got it, it seems no one wants.

Why the fuck would we make proclamations as to Brexit results, when Europe is in chaos, Merkel is on the way out, Hollande will give in to anything to make sure marine Le Pen does not succeed, and Belgium and Spain, still don't have a government, to speak of.

Say nothing, promise nothing and let the same fucked up Europe the oldies voted to leave, with some justification, (but not a lot), see the situation for what it is, hear what Britain was saying, and come up with something remotely serious for a sensible EU, which will be a first real decision made by the EU parliament for a good few years.

And Britain will rejoin or never leave in the first place.

 

[lemonjelly]

I think Emily Thornberry is either confused or deliberately misleading people. The government of the day did not promise any of those things it was the liars in the Leave campaign. Blaming the government when the cabinet position was to stay is pretty poor. Maybe she should look to Jezza for inspiration...

Perhaps it was aimed at Liam Fox or Bojo who flanked davies when he made the statement. They were, after all, immensely prominent figures in the campaign were they not?

 

[Johnny75]

Perhaps it was aimed at Liam Fox or Bojo who flanked davies when he made the statement. They were, after all, immensely prominent figures in the campaign were they not?

They weren't representing the government and that is what is in her statement. None of the people you mentioned had authority to promise such things as you and she well know.

Other than her crass statement how anybody can take Thornberry seriously is beyond me, an odious scumbag who sneers at people. About as far away from where I want an MP to be.

 

[visage]

You call her an 'odious scumbag' while criticizing *her* for sneering at people?

Thats pretty hypocritical.

 

[Johnny75]

Not really but I guess that's your opinion.

 

[lemonjelly]

“So far all we’ve learnt about Brexit is that the government is not going to introduce a points-based immigration system or give £350m per week to the NHS,” she observed.

Ok, this bit is clearly about the government, granted.

“Both of which were two of the key Vote Leave promises in the referendum campaign.

This bit however, is clearly separate and is about the vote leave campaign. Davies, Bojo & Fox were massive pushers of that campaign, and were amongst its leading lights in public profile.

The government has gone from gross negligence to rank incompetence.

Back to the government, for mis-handling the referendum and associated campaign, to now not really having a handle on the exit strategy. Proper planning for any big move, as I'm sure you know, would include an exit strategy. It would appear that absolutely no-one on the leave side anticipated actually winning, indeed they were so convinced they wouldn't win, that absolutely not a single one of them considered what would happen next. Indeed, the only person to have an exit strategy was cameron. But he repeatedly and deliberately lied about this publicly.

You’re making this up as you’re going along.”

Now, is this aimed at the government? Or the 3 amigo's who, again, were massively prominent leave campaigners? You've interpreted she meant the government. I would prefer to interpret it as she means the fuckwits sat opposite her. However, it wouldn't surprise me if there is an element of deliberateness in the ambiguity.

She may have her faults, but she isn't as vacuous or self serving as bojo, or fox.

 

[Johnny75]

Those are all fair points LJ particularly about Fox and Bojo who are went for Leave and had no plan, they are deplorable characters as they have shown.

I'm not sure anybody had a plan to Brexit and I mean anybody. It was rank bad planning but I would have thought those on the Leave and Remain side would've had a plan. Ms Thornberry might have asked that too but she didn't.

I don't think she's vacuous, indeed quite the opposite, she's very sharp and very self serving.

 

[lemonjelly]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-rift-stick-to-script-on-immigration-david-davis-told-a7229146.html

Downing Street distances the Prime Minister from the man she has appointed to oversee secession from the EU.

A Number 10 spokesperson said David Davis’s claim that it was “very improbable” Britain would stay in the European single market was “his opinion” – and not policy. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union on Monday told the House of Commons that if border controls were not allowed within the single market the UK would most likely leave it.

When pressed at a briefing however, the Prime Minister’s spokesperson denied that Mr Davis’s take on the matter was official policy – but presented no clear picture about how the Government would actually proceed. Asked whether Mr Davis was speaking for the Government, the Downing Street spokesperson said the statement was the minister’s opinion and that there were “differing views” on the subject. “Saying something is improbable or probable I don’t think is necessarily policy,” she said.

 

[nimrod]

Generally agree with this.

Not sure on this one. I think some of the deluded individuals who thought that money would go on the NHS for example, or believed the bullcrap being spouted will be disappointed. But I think they're a small minority. The majority, are either elderly(ish) and won't care too much, until it starts having negative impacts on their kids, or won't even care at that point. The other section of the majority will not care anyway, they got the out vote they wanted which will stop them darkies and poles and wotnot comin over here and we've got our country back blah blah.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think anyone is going to be genuinely happy.

but given world events immigration was always going to be the key issue and if brexit claims were untrue or exaggerated the 'remain' campaign should have responded rather than ignore the issue. can't completely blame the electorate.

 

[leedswolf]

Those are all fair points LJ particularly about Fox and Bojo who are went for Leave and had no plan, they are deplorable characters as they have shown.

I'm not sure anybody had a plan to Brexit and I mean anybody. It was rank bad planning but I would have thought those on the Leave and Remain side would've had a plan. Ms Thornberry might have asked that too but she didn't.

I don't think she's vacuous, indeed quite the opposite, she's very sharp and very self serving.

Presumably the Remain plan was to, erm remain?