Newcastle (H) 15/9: Build-Up & Match Thread

[Deutsch Wolf]

Hoping that everyone comes back from the internationals unscathed.

With tough fixtures to come away at Villa and home to City, again this represents one of our better chances of getting some early points on the board. Newcastle doesn't seem to have been a very happy camp of late, with them missing out on clear areas where they wanted to improve and Howe starting to mutter about not getting everything his own way. They were also deeply unimpressive against both Southampton and Spurs - although somehow scraped a victory in both. Schär will be back from a ban and by all accounts Tonali was excellent for Italy against France, so there's two immediate improvements to their XI.

Hwang has an excellent record against Newcastle but I can't be picking him at the moment - he's miles off it.

------------------------------Johnstone-------------------------

Semedo------------Dawson----------Mosquera---------Ait-Nouri

----------------------------André----------------------------

--------------------Lemina----------J Gomes--------------------

---------------Forbs-----Strand Larsen--------Cunha----------------

2023/24: D 2-2 (H), L 0-3 (A)
2022/23: D 1-1 (H), L 1-2 (A)
2021/22: W 2-1 (H), L 0-1 (A)
2020/21: D 1-1 (H), D 1-1 (A)
2019/20: D 1-1 (H), D 1-1 (A)
2018/19: D 1-1 (H), W 2-1 (A)
2016/17: L 0-1 (H), W 2-0 (A), L 0-2 (A, LC)
2011/12: L 1-2 (H), D 2-2 (A)
2010/11: D 1-1 (H), L 1-4 (A)
2003/04: W 3-2 (H, FAC)

Wolves vs Newcastle, 2003-2023

Can you name every Wolves player to score against Newcastle since 2003?

www.sporcle.com

 

[Lycan]

Johnstone

Semedo Mosquera Dawson Toti

Forbs André Lemina Aït-Nouri

Strand Larsen Cunha

He got a positive result going back to last season's shape after an absolute hammering, he's not going to drastically change it again.

Hopefully Forbs, Sarabia or Guedes in for Bellegarde. Regardless of his goal, I just don't rate him. I expect Bellegarde to start though and potentially Gomes starting to make it an unchanged team if it's decided that André needs a bit more time to bed in.

If he changes anyone it might be Aït-Nouri for Forbs or Rodrigo but personally I'd stick with him even despite the poor start to the season.

 

[Johnny75]

Johnstone

Semedo Mosquera Dawson Toti

Forbs André Lemina Aït-Nouri

Strand Larsen Cunha

4-2-4.

Ambitious.

 

[Lycan]

4-2-4.

Ambitious.

No, just the same as what he did last season, moving to a back 3 in possession.

Mosquera Dawson Toti

André Lemina

Semedo Forbs Strand Larsen Cunha Aït-Nouri

Not ambitious at all really but managers always retreat into their shell after a spanking and he's had a decent result away at Forest to justify that decision.

 

[Johnny75]

No, just the same as what he did last season, moving to a back 3 in possession.

Mosquera Dawson Toti

André Lemina

Semedo Forbs Strand Larsen Cunha Aït-Nouri

Not ambitious at all really but managers always retreat into their shell after a spanking and he's had a decent result away at Forest to justify that decision.

That looks very open to me and if he persists with a high line, and the murder ball style 1v1 Bielsa press, massively outnumbered in midfield.

I expect Dan's formation with Andre dropping into or shielding the centre back pair and be free of marking so he can pick up the runners.

Less attacking but better shape on and off the ball.

 

[Tredman]

Dan's team for me too, looks much more solid.

 

[Dire Wolf]

I definitely like the look of Deutsch's team.

 

[Tony Towner]

I'm not a massive fan, but if we were playing 3 in midfield I'd prefer Doyle to be one of them as he offers something a little different.

 

[Lycan]

That looks very open to me and if he persists with a high line, and the murder ball style 1v1 Bielsa press, massively outnumbered in midfield.

I expect Dan's formation with Andre dropping into or shielding the centre back pair and be free of marking so he can pick up the runners.

Less attacking but better shape on and off the ball.

It's definitely open as it's essentially the same as we played last season and we've always been open under O'Neil. It's not the high line we saw vs Chelsea though, Dawson can't play that way and there's no way O'Neil can drop him at the moment.

Maybe I'll be surprised but I can't see O'Neil playing a single pivot. He's never done it before. Even against Forest when we ended up with Doyle, André and Lemina on the pitch at the same time he played André and Lemina as the double pivot and pushed Doyle forward.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Maybe I'll be surprised but I can't see O'Neil playing a single pivot. He's never done it before. Even against Forest when we ended up with Doyle, André and Lemina on the pitch at the same time he played André and Lemina as the double pivot and pushed Doyle forward.

I think with my proposed team it can be quite fluid (much as the front three can be) - they're all intelligent enough footballers to sense when they have to drop back in and tough it out. It's not like we're just going to park André in front of the centre halves and let the other two do whatever they want. Although you never know with Gaz.

Joao in particular has so much more to offer than just doing a defensive role, he's got so much natural ability on the ball.

 

[Lycan]

I think with my proposed team it can be quite fluid (much as the front three can be) - they're all intelligent enough footballers to sense when they have to drop back in and tough it out. It's not like we're just going to park André in front of the centre halves and let the other two do whatever they want. Although you never know with Gaz.

Joao in particular has so much more to offer than just doing a defensive role, he's got so much natural ability on the ball.

My point was that even though GON has played a few different systems in his career so far he's always

A) built up with a double pivot.

B) Had 2 players leading the press. Even when he's played a single striker he's either pushed up a CM or inverted a winger to press as a 2.

I don't see those things changing just because he now has André. Even last season when he played Doyle/Lemina/Gomes together it was with one of those 3 pushed into the forward line when we had an injury crisis.

I think if he does play André/Gomes/Lemina it wouldn't be like a Liverpool Klopp 2019 style 3 midfielders with a 6 and 2 8s. It'd still be a double pivot with one of those 3 pushed high next to a striker, similar to how Lopetegui used Mourinho. I don't think he'll want to do that though because it wouldn't suit a large portion of our first team squad now.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

He could of course reflect that what he's doing/has always done hasn't worked for six months now...

 

[Lycan]

Also, look at this timeline:

- Manager has a style of play that has delivered results before (even if he's not 100% happy with it)

- Attempts to change that style but gets an absolute hammering at home and admits publicly that his squad isn't suited to the new style

- Reverts to the old style and gets a well earned point away

What does he do next? Try another completely new formation in a way that he's never set up any of his teams in his (admittedly short) career? Or does he continue with the old style in an attempt to get points on the board?

 

[Lycan]

He could of course reflect that what he's doing/has always done hasn't worked for six months now...

He's always going to think that was more to do with our squad issues in the second half of last season rather than his own failings though isn't he?

I don't necessarily agree but he WAS pulling 15 year olds out of science classes to sit on the bench vs Arsenal.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't know if Chelsea was wildly different in terms of style to what we've always done under him. As I said the other week, we could have been 4-0 down to them at HT last season. They were just clinical this time and they weren't the time before.

 

[Lycan]

I don't know if Chelsea was wildly different in terms of style to what we've always done under him. As I said the other week, we could have been 4-0 down to them at HT last season. They were just clinical this time and they weren't the time before.

Oh yeah, I agree. O'Neil has said himself that the change hasn't been that drastic, the majority of it is just using more creative attacking players in positions where last season we would've used someone more physical or defensively minded.

The performance against Chelsea was obviously something he didn't see coming though. In theory even though he's used more attacking players the change should've seen us be a little calmer and more in control than the craziness we saw at times last season but obviously the reality was that we weren't in control at all.

It was enough for him to state out loud (twice, although the second time was a more pointed criticism of our owners than our squad) that the squad wasn't capable of making that change. And if you don't believe what he says, judge him by his actions. A week later and he's brought back Craig Dawson, has dropped the defensive line 10-15 metres and has moved Toti back to LB/LCH.

It's not what I'd do but IMO it's the most likely scenario given that he knows it can work and that he knows the majority of the squad can fit into that shape in one way or another.

While I think O'Neil is quite astute tactically, I don't think he's particularly innovative, more of a follower of trends than a radical thinker. I'm also not sure that he's strong enough to make a 'brave' decision in this situation to try something completely new to this group of players (at least not this early on after the Chelsea game) when he has the old style ready to fall back on.

FWIW I'm saying all this because of a lack of faith in O'Neil (and British managers in general) rather than what I'd ideally like to see happen in this situation.

 

[1986]

I'd definitely be filing this match as a ' must not lose ' . Our fixtures after this until the 2nd November are pretty tough to say the least .

 

[Johnny75]

Oh yeah, I agree. O'Neil has said himself that the change hasn't been that drastic, the majority of it is just using more creative attacking players in positions where last season we would've used someone more physical or defensively minded.

The performance against Chelsea was obviously something he didn't see coming though. In theory even though he's used more attacking players the change should've seen us be a little calmer and more in control than the craziness we saw at times last season but obviously the reality was that we weren't in control at all.

It was enough for him to state out loud (twice, although the second time was a more pointed criticism of our owners than our squad) that the squad wasn't capable of making that change. And if you don't believe what he says, judge him by his actions. A week later and he's brought back Craig Dawson, has dropped the defensive line 10-15 metres and has moved Toti back to LB/LCH.

It's not what I'd do but IMO it's the most likely scenario given that he knows it can work and that he knows the majority of the squad can fit into that shape in one way or another.

While I think O'Neil is quite astute tactically, I don't think he's particularly innovative, more of a follower of trends than a radical thinker. I'm also not sure that he's strong enough to make a 'brave' decision in this situation to try something completely new to this group of players (at least not this early on after the Chelsea game) when he has the old style ready to fall back on.

FWIW I'm saying all this because of a lack of faith in O'Neil (and British managers in general) rather than what I'd ideally like to see happen in this situation.

I agree with all this apart from him being astute.

I think he has an idea/ philosophy of the way he wants to play but can't implement it or it's unworkable with any set of players.

A tactically astute manager gets those players in the positions they want and let's the players make decisions in those positions.

I don't think he's capable of that, and I think that's what you're getting at?

He's said a number of times about not having the players but that shows a lack of ability as a manager to mould players he has into the team he wants.

From what I can see he wants this high press game and 1v1 murderball stuff to win the ball high and punish mistakes by suffocation.

It would be interesting to know what GoN thinks his perfect set of players are.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think an issue for him in the immediate term is he needs WINS, not the odd point here and there. We can't hit November and be on 0 wins. If we are then I don't think he's the Wolves manager any more.

 

[Lycan]

I don't think he's capable of that, and I think that's what you're getting at?

More that I think he has his finger on the pulse of what the top coaches are doing but perhaps wouldn't be able to come up with something new in the way that De Zerbi did at Sassuolo & Brighton or Motta at Bologna. He's probably very interesting to listen to when he talks about tactics, what he still has to prove as a young manager is whether he can implement those ideas at the top level. I have my doubts but I'm also willing to give him time given how tumultuous last season was off the pitch.