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Live Match Discussion 2022/23

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80s football was fucking awful, 'entertaining' my arse. There's a reason why attendances were atrocious.

We struggled to get 3,000 for home games at our worst. Loads of top flight games were half empty.

If that's the supposed halcyon age then I despair.
 
Until I discovered Wolves due to the unrequited shag desire most of my football experiences were non-league. Aylesbury United, Tring Town, Bath City. I did go to Manchester City v Luton with my dad in about 1987, so I got to experience the Kippax which was pretty immense.

As soon as I got to attend a Wolves game though, that was it.
 
80s football was fucking awful, 'entertaining' my arse. There's a reason why attendances were atrocious.

We struggled to get 3,000 for home games at our worst. Loads of top flight games were half empty.

If that's the supposed halcyon age then I despair.
I think it's unfair to cite Wolves attendances without context which I don't need to go through.

As for football in general the football was fine. Some parts were better - more of a meritocracy, more physical, less diving, pricing. Some worse, shitty pitches, skillful players not protected enough, time wasting through back passes.

Wider attendances were a product of the time, principally hooliganism and awful facilities. Policing, as seen at Hillsborough was a disgrace, very much cause and effect. The three of those put people off, particularly families
 
In the last 20 years only Middlesbrough v Bolton and Swansea v Bradford have been carabao cup finals that did not have a big six finalist.
In the 20 years before there were 6 finals of the same competition that did not have a big six finalist.
The FA cup is just as bad with Portsmouth V Cardiff the only final since the start of the Premier league 30 years ago to not have a big sky six finalist. Its rigged in favour of the big boys and it needs sorting. Just my view. Get the seeds playing each other early and give the rest of the teams something to fight for. The worst big six team is still better by a good bit than the best of the rest.
 
80s football was fucking awful, 'entertaining' my arse. There's a reason why attendances were atrocious.

We struggled to get 3,000 for home games at our worst. Loads of top flight games were half empty.

If that's the supposed halcyon age then I despair.
Now thats just Hyperbole TT is correct that there are plenty of other raesons for fans staying away. Thatchers Britain was a tough place to live and work in> Heres some world class goals from that decade just to remind those that it wasnt all bad and football did exist before 1991. Hell England reached a world cup semi in 1990!

 
Football as a spectacle is infinitely better now, of that there is no question.

Who wants to see back passes, people having the shit kicked out of them and shit pitches where the ball was stuck in mud.

Fuck that.
But that’s not the argument. I say the 70s and 80s there was a chance for 10 or more teams to win silverware at the start of a season. Now it’s 6 and soon to become 7 based on their ability to buy the best talent in the world and pay the best wages. It’s money that changed it . You barely have to be half competent to be a millionaire. It’s wrong. Chelsea’s academy is the place to search for tomorrow’s stars and that too is wrong .
I actually liked football when it was a contact sport not players getting sent off by incompetent officials for a 50/50 challenge. Somewhere between the two would be much better and that’s all I am asking .
 
There really weren't. Liverpool were winning everything between Forest and Derby having their brief go. Outliers were Southampton picking up a cup and West Ham in 1975 and 1980. Apart from that it was a couple of Manchester United cup wins.
 
Villa won the league, Ipswich the Cup. Watford got promoted and finished second, Swansea finished top 6. Forest went up and won the league the next season and the European Cup the one after that. It was different outside of Liverpool to how it is now with the Leicester league season being the big outlier
 
Swansea finished top six and then dropped three divisions. Watford stayed in the top flight for about four or five seasons. The Luton, Norwich and Oxford league cups are better examples though. You could win the tertiary competition.
 
Doesn't really matter how long it lasted the point is it was achievable. Fulham will win the Championship with close to 100 points this season and well over 100 goals, their ambition will to finish 17th next. That's the difference
 
Oh I agree, to a point. But teams coming up then could compete with the most of the division but (the admirable Clough side apart) couldn't get near Liverpool really. I do definitely think coming up and achieving Euro football is a seriously difficult thing to do, and I am proud we achieved it.
 
There really weren't. Liverpool were winning everything between Forest and Derby having their brief go. Outliers were Southampton picking up a cup and West Ham in 1975 and 1980. Apart from that it was a couple of Manchester United cup wins.
Dont take this the wrong way but thats nonsense and , as I am getting a bit tired of this re-writing of football history I have taken the trouble to prove why.

Here is some criteria and I think we can agree. I have stuck to the time period from when I first started watching football until the end of the nineties so I dont get accused of moving goal posts.
In the last 15 years the aim has been to qualify for the champions league or europe. Top four is the aim and the measure of success for the big six. Top 6 gets you in Europe and occaissonaly that goes to 7th.

From 1974 to 1989 ( the seasons I references earlier)the following teams finished in the top four that were not big Sky six
74-5 Derby Ipswich Everton Stoke
75-6 QPR Derby
76-7 Ipswich Villa
77 -8 Forest Everton
78-9 WBA Everton
80 Ipswich
81-Villa Ipswich WBA
82 Ipswich
83- Watford
84-Southampton Forest
85-Everton
86 West Ham
87 Everton
88 Forest, Everton
89 Forest Norwich.

Thats 12 different clubs in 15 years.

So every year at least one of the teams outside what we now consider the big Sky Six finished top 4 and would have qualified for the champions League and , in spite of Liverpool being the dominant force , Forest , Derby Villa and Everton also won the top Division title.

From 2006 to 2020 the only team outside the big six to finish in the top four was Leciester in 2016 who won the League.

All other times those places were occupied by a big six team. Only five times in those fifteen years has a big six team been ousted from the top 5- 3 x Everton 1x Newcastle 1x Leciester

Basically 14 teams are fighting for 7th now with the current set up and format and its not good for the game. So to level the playing field putting the big six against each other in the FA cup 3rd round and the Carabao cup would widen the chance for the other 14 to win an honour or a trophy and qualify for europe. So much so that , even though it could cost us a european place I would be delighted on one hand If Crystal palace won the cup and qualified as it breaks this absolute money backed stranglehold the big six have on football. Its going to be even worse next year as Newcastle will join that throng and it will then be 13 fighting for scraps of which we will be one.

I accept that the technical quality of the football has improved in the premier league as have the pitches but so much has also been lost. A good hard tackle can ( not always) get you send off. Thats not right. Handball is now a science as is Offside and mm are measured by a VAR who cannot interfere in other circumstances where its obvious there has been an error ( see Raul v Leeds).

We have put eveything in place to encourage the best footballers in the world to come and play here at the best stadiums in what is lauded as the best league in the world and we have done it , not for the benfit of the fans but to appease the sky big six and its worked. And its fucking boring to me. You are welcome to feel differently , but given what many of you pay (£70 a shirt , 700 a season ticket etc) its a bit of a rigged system.
 
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The premier league is all I’ve ever known but there was no sky 6 in the 80s? There wasn’t even one in the 90s!?

It was United alone pretty much. Then United V Arsenal with Liverpool somewhere around and then the likes of Newcastle, Leeds and Chelsea being up there. City we’re nobodies, as were Spurs.

Chelsea then got really competitive with the Abramovich Money and then later City. Spurs have somehow managed to permanently muscle their way in their by having a few consistent seasons, something Villa and Everton (maybe even Bolton?!) never managed to do.

The shop is closed because money at the top of the game is so great so the gap widens every year. But 3 clubs were already in it based on history, 2 have bought their way in and 1 has if anything organically grown in to an extent. Everton have tried and failed, Leicester have given it a good go but are probably going backwards not forwards, us and West Ham are giving it a good go but ultimately are going to fall short and then Newcastle are going to try to muscle their way in moving forward.
 
My biggest concern / conspiracy theory is that "fans" of PL clubs from outside the UK support one of the sky 6. It's in the PLs interest to keep the sky 6 successful to keep these fans engaged.

How long will an external "fan" of the sky 6 keep following their club if they stop being successful.
 
The concept of the big six only came into being when United started dropping out of the original premier league top four concept.

In the seventies United were nowhere near the league. They were a cup side. The big sides in the League were basically Liverpool and maybe a bit of Arsenal. Man City were nowhere. Chelsea were in the second division for a period. Tottenham were relegated in 1978. United were relegated in 1974.

So as there was no big six it was miles easier for teams to get into a top four. But unless they were a side managed by Clough, nobody got past the Liverpool of Shankly or Paisley between Revie Leeds and 1981 Aston Villa.
 
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