Live Match Discussion 2022/23

[Tony Towner]

In the 80's it was the Big 5. Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, Everton and Arsenal, but that was more about club size and them operating together in negotiations rather than where they finished every season

 

[Tony Towner]

But unless they were a side managed by Clough, nobody got past the Liverpool of Shankly or Paisley between Revie Leeds and 1981 Aston Villa.

Dave Mackay was Derby manager the second time they won the league

 

[Throbber3]

View attachment 5187

Really? You are that happy with this rigged set up? You surprise me. I thought you were more in touch with the game than that. Hey Ho , I will stop yelling at clouds on here then.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I have looked at the entire 1970s decade. These are the top four each year and finishing positions of the modern day big six. There really was no cartel dominating to get past. Checking this made me realise how shit Arsenal were for a good chunk of the decade too!

1969-1970 Everton, Leeds, Chelsea, Derby (Liverpool 5th, Man U 8th, Man C 10th, Spurs 11th, Arsenal 12th)
1970-1971 Arsenal Leeds Spurs Wolves (Liverpool 5th, Chelsea 6th, Man U 8th, Man C 11th)
1971-1972 Derby Leeds Liverpool Man C (Arsenal 5th, Spurs 6th, Chelsea 7th, Man U 8th)
1972-1973 Liverpool Arsenal Leeds Ipswich (Spurs 8th, Man C 11th, Chelsea 12th, Man U 18th)
1973-1974 Leeds Liverpool Derby Ipswich (Arsenal 10th, Spurs 11th, Man C 14th, Chelsea 17th, Man U 21st (R))
1974-1975 Derby Liverpool Ipswich Everton (Man C 8th, Arsenal 16th, Spurs 19th, Chelsea 21st (R), Man U Second Division)
1975-1976 Liverpool QPR Man U, Derby (Man C 8th, Spurs 9th, Arsenal 17th, Chelsea second division)
1976-1977 Liverpool Man C Ipswich Villa (Man U 6th, Arsenal 8th, Spurs 22nd (R), Chelsea second division)
1977-1978 Forest Liverpool Everton Man C (Arsenal 5th, Man U 10th, Chelsea 16th, Spurs second division)
1978-1979 Liverpool Forest WBA Everton (Arsenal 7th, Man U 9th, Spurs 11th, Man C 15th, Chelsea 22nd (r))

So Liverpool were in the top four every year from 1971-1972 until 1978-1979, and the lowest they finished was fifth in the entire decade.
Arsenal had one title and one close championship challenge. The rest of the years they missed the top four
Man City one title challenge, one other top four finish, and, the rest is mid table at best
Man United one third place finish, the rest nowhere near, and one relegation in the decade
Spurs no top four finishes at all, and only one year even really in the shake up, one relegation
Chelsea one top four finish, no other appearances in the European shake up, two relegations and stayed in the second division for two seasons on the first relegation.

The cartel at the top just didn't exist like it does now.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Dave Mackay was Derby manager the second time they won the league

Good memory!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Why the wish to have a load of mediocre teams duking it out (and still not winning anything in the end, and we didn't even have European football between 1986 and 1990 either so 2nd and below meant absolutely nothing)?

And Forest were double European champions and one of the best teams in the country for over a decade, you can't say they somehow didn't count because 40 years later they're an irrelevance and Man City are huge, that makes no sense. It's cyclical.

 

[Johnny75]

Really? You are that happy with this rigged set up? You surprise me. I thought you were more in touch with the game than that. Hey Ho , I will stop yelling at clouds on here then.

I am, clearly you're not

As flippant as that is, you are harking back to an age where the world was different and football wasn't particularly beautiful but pretty brutal and downright fucking boring at times.

The money issue could be fixed at any point but it isn't SKY that are the problem it's FIFA and UEFA. They're the ones with the power to clip wages across the board, but for some reason they won't.

Have a pop at them not SKY as it's in SKY's interests to have as many winners as possible and the most competitive league in the world.

 

[Alan]

Isn’t it lovely how football brings us all together

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Absolutely.
The performance of Derby in the early seventies was particularly impressive.
The dominance in that decade was Liverpool and Liverpool only, so other teams got opportunities.

Now there are the big teams not just because of team size but commercial power, and that is now very difficult to overcome

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Have a pop at them not SKY as it's in SKY's interests to have as many winners as possible and the most competitive league in the world.

Im not sure about that. The occasional Leicester story is fine but I’m pretty sure Sky would be happy with the Big Six finishing in the top six places but preferably with them all being closer. Sky just love them, especially MU, and are happy to spend most of their time talking about them.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Sky love their huge armchair fanbases. Its all about subscriber numbers.

 

[Johnny75]

Im not sure about that. The occasional Leicester story is fine but I’m pretty sure Sky would be happy with the Big Six finishing in the top six places but preferably with them all being closer. Sky just love them, especially MU, and are happy to spend most of their time talking about them.

I genuinely don't think this is true. If the broadcasters have more stories to tell about different teams and players people don't get bored with them talking about the same things all the time.

They get bigger audiences and better advertising revenues.

It's no secret there aren't many dominant teams in the American Sports. The broadcasters want different players and teams to do well so they can change their own stories.

 

[Throbber3]

The shop is closed because money at the top of the game is so great so the gap widens every year. But 3 clubs were already in it based on history, 2 have bought their way in and 1 has if anything organically grown in to an extent. Everton have tried and failed, Leicester have given it a good go but are probably going backwards not forwards, us and West Ham are giving it a good go but ultimately are going to fall short and then Newcastle are going to try to muscle their way in moving forward.

I genuinely don't think this is true. If the broadcasters have more stories to tell about different teams and players people don't get bored with them talking about the same things all the time.

They get bigger audiences and better advertising revenues.

It's no secret there aren't many dominant teams in the American Sports. The broadcasters want different players and teams to do well so they can change their own stories.

In both these cases just because its happening , does not make it right and does not make me a man shouting at clouds.

 

[Throbber3]

Final post on this as the thread has been hijacked enough and I apologise for that. My earlier post was to suggest seeding the top 6 or 8 in both cups to encourage greater competition and give some of the other teams something to aim for other than 7th place. I maintain its nonsense to have a ceiling of 7th but in reality for 14 clubs thats as good as it gets. I also used that exact phrase on the top 4 thread in February and again was put in my box.

But looking at the posts on this thread I am confused. It appears that many agree the game is monopolised yet disagree that seeding the top six is an answer. Why? Yes its likely to involve the big sky six but as some have said its all about audience ratings so those early cup games between two sky six sides are going to attract a premium. Whats not to love? Posters have also said that it is in Skys interest for other teams to challenge the sky 6. Again, why not do something to help that. It may be seen as penalising success, but I feel I have proved that the Sky 6 have had the monopoly on football in England for too long and a change would benefit both the fans and the TV providers including sky. I dont really care how monopolised games or sports are in other countries, I care about here as it advertises the Premier League as the best in the world. The current system only serves to line the coffers of the sky six and it is very successful at doing that, while the other 14 premier league clubs are kept in their place.
It means that footballers will eventually rather be on the bench at a big six club trying to win honours in a short career rather than playing for one of the other 14. An example, Walker , Stones , Grealish, Fernandinho Ake and Zinchenko who would all probably be first choice in their position with a club outside the sky six have managed just 78 appearances in the premier league between them this season (out of 168 possible, they may have had a few injuries). They may however also prefer to play at City and be on the bench rather than perhaps play more and all are on contracts that would make them close to top earners at a club like Wolves.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

They dont want seedings for the following reason. Six clubs, if seeded against each other is three FA Cup third round ties. If they aren't seeded you could have six potential big six ties for the TV Companies to chose from. They televise a minimum of four ties in that round.

Also seeding from six doesn't work. You have three seeded teams left in round four so you can't make two seeded ties. You would have to seed eight teams for the idea to be even practical, and how do you choose teams 7 and 8?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It's a barmy idea. It's basically reverse seeding, imagine if Wimbledon had said 10 years ago that Federer had to play Nadal within the first couple of rounds so everyone else had a chance. Er, no.

Plus if we ever win a trophy in my lifetime I want us to have done it on merit, not because there was some artificial fudging of the draw which meant we got bumped up the order.

 

[Throbber3]

They dont want seedings for the following reason. Six clubs, if seeded against each other is three FA Cup third round ties. If they aren't seeded you could have six potential big six ties for the TV Companies to chose from. They televise a minimum of four ties in that round.

Also seeding from six doesn't work. You have three seeded teams left in round four so you can't make two seeded ties. You would have to seed eight teams for the idea to be even practical, and how do you choose teams 7 and 8?

Sa

They dont want seedings for the following reason. Six clubs, if seeded against each other is three FA Cup third round ties. If they aren't seeded you could have six potential big six ties for the TV Companies to chose from. They televise a minimum of four ties in that round.

Also seeding from six doesn't work. You have three seeded teams left in round four so you can't make two seeded ties. You would have to seed eight teams for the idea to be even practical, and how do you choose teams 7 and 8?

me principle for me using your criteria of top 8 =

Top 8 from the season finshing for CARABAO cup round 2
Top 8 on 1st weekend in December (the time of the third round draw.)

All ties as follows , home side first, one game no replay extra time FA cup only , both go to penalties.

8 v1
7 v 2
6 v 3
5 v 4

That would give the following draws

Carabao cup round 3 as its seeded to allow for europe.

Arsenal 8 v Man City 1
Spurs 7 v Man Utd 2
West Ham 6 v Liverpool 3
Leicester 5 V Chelsea 4

Great ties and plenty to look at and at least 2 big six gone at the first go.

FA cup 3rd round

Wolves 8 V Man City 1
Man United 7 v Liverpool 2
Spurs 6 V Cheslea 3
Arsenal 5 v West Ham 4

Again , some cracking third round ties and at least 2 sky six gone straight off.

In this years FA cup only Arsenal from the sky six were eliminated , and the carabao cup only Man United were eliminated a 50% reduction on my suggestions. Its worth a shot for me.

 

[Johnny75]

Sa

me principle for me using your criteria of top 8 =

Top 8 from the season finshing for CARABAO cup round 2
Top 8 on 1st weekend in December (the time of the third round draw.)

All ties as follows , home side first, one game no replay extra time FA cup only , both go to penalties.

8 v1
7 v 2
6 v 3
5 v 4

That would give the following draws

Carabao cup round 3 as its seeded to allow for europe.

Arsenal 8 v Man City 1
Spurs 7 v Man Utd 2
West Ham 6 v Liverpool 3
Leicester 5 V Chelsea 4

Great ties and plenty to look at and at least 2 big six gone at the first go.

FA cup 3rd round

Wolves 8 V Man City 1
Man United 7 v Liverpool 2
Spurs 6 V Cheslea 3
Arsenal 5 v West Ham 4

Again , some cracking third round ties and at least 2 sky six gone straight off.

In this years FA cup only Arsenal from the sky six were eliminated , and the carabao cup only Man United were eliminated a 50% reduction on my suggestions. Its worth a shot for me.

It's fucking batshit and stupid.

The complete opposite of the football pyramid and winning on merit.

 

[Throbber3]

It's a barmy idea. It's basically reverse seeding, imagine if Wimbledon had said 10 years ago that Federer had to play Nadal within the first couple of rounds so everyone else had a chance. Er, no.

Plus if we ever win a trophy in my lifetime I want us to have done it on merit, not because there was some artificial fudging of the draw which meant we got bumped up the order.

Another example of a boring sport. Emma Raducanu got the highest viewing figures for years on the US tennis win. Even I tuned in and I hate tennis. The womens game has always had a better turnapound than the mens though. Thats just the fact that , unusually there have been 3 players to dominate for 10 years or more. Three is different to 6 given the number of tournaments and trophies that are avilable. Here we have three main football trophies and they are being won by the same 5 realistically as Spurs have won squat. Djokovic V Nadal and Federer V Murray in the first round at wimbledon would have been great.

We wont win a trophy in your lifetime with the current system. If its trophies youre hunting best you switch to a sky 6 as thats where they are heading and the stats from the last 15 years prove it.

As for the fudging of the draw you do make brash statements. And I would hazard that , like me , you would not give a fuck if it was a Wolves V Brighton FA cup final because of the seeding.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Hang on, it's you who arbitrarily supported a club because they won a cup, not me.

I have no idea what you're driving at. Again.