Keir Starmer at it again..

[Dire Wolf]

Or saving the poorest in society money so they don't have to fall into poverty just to get to work.

Khan is hamstrung by government in what he can do for transport and Starmer doesn't have the power to influence national policy on scrappage schemes and public transport directly.

Stop being so bitter.

I'd have thought that's a complete red herring. The poorest people in and around London are highly unlikely to be travelling to work by car. Especially when the Tube is so relatively cheap and easy.

 

[Johnny75]

I'd have thought that's a complete red herring. The poorest people in and around London are highly unlikely to be travelling to work by car. Especially when the Tube is so relatively cheap and easy.

It isn't a red herring to the people I know and work with They're really upset with the ULEZ expansion as their cars are older and they can't afford to replace them.

 

[EpsomWolf]

I'd have thought that's a complete red herring. The poorest people in and around London are highly unlikely to be travelling to work by car. Especially when the Tube is so relatively cheap and easy.

Khan did say that very thing and as much as I dislike him he did torpedo the argument with that line.

That said, the ulez in central london has support because the very wealthy can drive and pay the charge or easily afford to upgrade in the unlikely event they are not compliant already. Everyone else can get about relatively efficiently without needing to drive so apart from a small band struggling with older cars why would you not support it?

Start pushing the ulez out into the suburbs and it’s a very different matter - you are really hurting the less wealthy with no alternative transport means, you’re hurting the middle ground who can afford to, but resent being forced to pay considerable sums to upgrade, and of course the very wealthy are unaffected for the same reasons as the wealthy in the centre.

We’ve got the ulez coming to 3/4 of a mile from my front door. Every single person I know has a compliant vehicle already and will be unaffected so should have no reason not to support cleaner air, but the paradox is the expansion plan is absolutely hated.

There will be all kinds of theories around that, but my view is despite the blue rinse stereotypes there is genuine anger that those struggling to keep their older vehicles on the road to get to work, or get their kids to football training after school, or.. (etc etc) will be forced off the road with limited alternatives and motoring will become the preserve of the wealthy.

If that view is seen as just an unfortunate byproduct and a price worth paying then press on, but don’t be surprised when you get a kickback like Uxbridge.

It’s a bit of a warning to everyone forcing green issues despite good intentions. You have to pick you battles wisely and I think Khan has got it wrong on this one.

 

[leedswolf]

Sadiq Khan Hints At ULEZ U-Turn After Criticism From Keir Starmer

Sources close to the London mayor now say he is "listening" in the wake of Labour's defeat in Uxbridge.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

 

[Dire Wolf]

Khan did say that very thing and as much as I dislike him he did torpedo the argument with that line.

That said, the ulez in central london has support because the very wealthy can drive and pay the charge or easily afford to upgrade in the unlikely event they are not compliant already. Everyone else can get about relatively efficiently without needing to drive so apart from a small band struggling with older cars why would you not support it?

Start pushing the ulez out into the suburbs and it’s a very different matter - you are really hurting the less wealthy with no alternative transport means, you’re hurting the middle ground who can afford to, but resent being forced to pay considerable sums to upgrade, and of course the very wealthy are unaffected for the same reasons as the wealthy in the centre.

We’ve got the ulez coming to 3/4 of a mile from my front door. Every single person I know has a compliant vehicle already and will be unaffected so should have no reason not to support cleaner air, but the paradox is the expansion plan is absolutely hated.

There will be all kinds of theories around that, but my view is despite the blue rinse stereotypes there is genuine anger that those struggling to keep their older vehicles on the road to get to work, or get their kids to football training after school, or.. (etc etc) will be forced off the road with limited alternatives and motoring will become the preserve of the wealthy.

If that view is seen as just an unfortunate byproduct and a price worth paying then press on, but don’t be surprised when you get a kickback like Uxbridge.

It’s a bit of a warning to everyone forcing green issues despite good intentions. You have to pick you battles wisely and I think Khan has got it wrong on this one.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, but at some point forcing green issues is going to have to be done. If it isn't we are sleepwalking into leaving nothing left of the planet for our grandchildren and great grandchildren. At what point does it become acceptable to start forcing green issues? When it's already too late? Because honestly, we aren't a million miles from that point now. If we continue to allow big business, particularly the energy and motor industries, to dictate what green issues are allowed to be acceptable then we will destroy the planet. Because capitalism is about continuous growth of wealth, it will continue to try and grow until the planet is destroyed and it destroys itself.

 

[EpsomWolf]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, but at some point forcing green issues is going to have to be done. If it isn't we are sleepwalking into leaving nothing left of the planet for our grandchildren and great grandchildren. At what point does it become acceptable to start forcing green issues? When it's already too late? Because honestly, we aren't a million miles from that point now. If we continue to allow big business, particularly the energy and motor industries, to dictate what green issues are allowed to be acceptable then we will destroy the planet. Because capitalism is about continuous growth of wealth, it will continue to try and grow until the planet is destroyed and it destroys itself.

Likewise, I agree with much of what you are saying.

The difficulty for XR, JSO, Insulate Britain (and whichever incarnation lies just around the corner) is however good the intentions are or how catastrophic the alternatives might appear, activists are not God and don’t get to speak for everyone.

The direct action of the above groups and things like the ulez expansion is beginning to have a detrimental effect - the ‘awareness’ debate they crave is already getting tired and there is a gross underestimation of the numbers who frankly don’t feel as passionate having their empathy eroded and resent being dictated to.

It’s an impossible task if you demand change at a rate believed necessary to save the planet but in doing so create pressures to alienate people which will ultimately have the reverse affect - it’s a tipping point I think we’re arriving at and the ulez is very symbolic of that.

 

[AndyWolves]

"It’s an impossible task if you demand change at a rate believed necessary to save the planet but in doing so create pressures to alienate people"

It's statements like this that makes me think we're fucked. We have to want to make changes, but no one seems to want to.

 

[EpsomWolf]

"It’s an impossible task if you demand change at a rate believed necessary to save the planet but in doing so create pressures to alienate people"

It's statements like this that makes me think we're fucked. We have to want to make changes, but no one seems to want to.

Lots of people certainly don’t want to hand the authority to a band that believe they have a superpower whose duty it is to force everyone else to cede control to them.

Where we think that takes us and how we deal with that is for some people going to be very difficult indeed.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Again, I think you make some valid points. Ultimately what many of these groups represent is a desire for action and a desire for change and that scares people. But so did the Suffragettes, the ANC, the Trade Union movement, the Civil Rights movement etc etc. But eventually those groups were accepted, after a lot of struggle, some peaceful some not.

The main resistance to change is the economic system that we live in. Nothing will change in terms of helping the planet while we live in a profit driven, greed driven economic system. Because saving the planet isn't a profitable act. Real action in saving the planet will not happen in a capitalist economic system. Ever. Or at least until it is too late.

 

[lemonjelly]

Likewise, I agree with much of what you are saying.

The difficulty for XR, JSO, Insulate Britain (and whichever incarnation lies just around the corner) is however good the intentions are or how catastrophic the alternatives might appear, activists are not God and don’t get to speak for everyone.

The direct action of the above groups and things like the ulez expansion is beginning to have a detrimental effect - the ‘awareness’ debate they crave is already getting tired and there is a gross underestimation of the numbers who frankly don’t feel as passionate having their empathy eroded and resent being dictated to.

It’s an impossible task if you demand change at a rate believed necessary to save the planet but in doing so create pressures to alienate people which will ultimately have the reverse affect - it’s a tipping point I think we’re arriving at and the ulez is very symbolic of that.

I understand the points you're making, but isn't this just nimby-ism for the modern age?
It seems that everyone/the vast majority agree change is needed for the sake of the climate/planet.
But it can't be that other people need to change, I'll stay as I am?

 

[Wilf Wolf]

In some places the ulez zone goes right up to the M25. I’d be more than a little pissed off if I had a non-compliant vehicle and was forced to pay a daily charge when literally yards away thousands of vehicles are trundling around the M25 spewing out emissions with no control.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Again, I think you make some valid points. Ultimately what many of these groups represent is a desire for action and a desire for change and that scares people. But so did the Suffragettes, the ANC, the Trade Union movement, the Civil Rights movement etc etc. But eventually those groups were accepted, after a lot of struggle, some peaceful some not.

The main resistance to change is the economic system that we live in. Nothing will change in terms of helping the planet while we live in a profit driven, greed driven economic system. Because saving the planet isn't a profitable act. Real action in saving the planet will not happen in a capitalist economic system. Ever. Or at least until it is too late.

I think you’re not doing yourselves any favours in assuming it’s the desire for change that scares people. Likewise, the analogies with the suffragettes, ANC etc and the belief most people will see it your way and agree eventually.

There’s also the underpinning political leanings at play which leak out all over this - “profit driven” “greed” “capitalist economic system” which can give a radical lefty feel and turn an awful lot of people off.

I think most people are receptive to change but we are largely now debating the timeframe and the actions necessary within it. Sadly I don’t think there’s the remotest of chances we will get to anything close to satisfying those most fearful.

You’re a bit stuck if you’ve decided upon the doomsday scenario and your only hope is actions which begin to backfire and make things worse. It’s a corner you’ve boxed yourself into and catch 22 you might not be able to get out of.

 

[AndyWolves]

In some places the ulez zone goes right up to the M25. I’d be more than a little pissed off if I had a non-compliant vehicle and was forced to pay a daily charge when literally yards away thousands of vehicles are trundling around the M25 spewing out emissions with no control.

That's the problem in a nutshell, why should I do anything when someone else is doing something worse than me?

I'm not saying your wrong, but I don't know how we overcome it.

 

[EpsomWolf]

I understand the points you're making, but isn't this just nimby-ism for the modern age?
It seems that everyone/the vast majority agree change is needed for the sake of the climate/planet.
But it can't be that other people need to change, I'll stay as I am?

Well yes, there are certainly elements of that at work but you’re moving into the areas of behavioural change. Trying to force that through direct action is just not working and (imv) becoming damaging and counterproductive.

As mentioned to Dire it’s a spiral trap there doesn’t seem to be any way out of unfortunately.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

The planet is fucked, sadly. As a race, we are too selfish and too greedy to do what will be required.

The film Don’t Look Up sums us up perfectly.

On a side note, I hope Pav is ok as it seems Evia is currently on fire.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Ulez has been sold on air quality more than climate change. If climate change is the driver it should apply nationally not just to a zone inside the M25 as obviously carbon dioxide isn’t going to stay inside that zone. I suspect the reality is that once large zones are established within major cities driven by air quality concerns the idea will become accepted and rolled out more widely.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

The most frustrating part about it is that it's 2023 and we're still making/buying petrol and diesel vehicles.

 

[Loki]

The planet is fucked, sadly. As a race, we are too selfish and too greedy to do what will be required.

The film Don’t Look Up sums us up perfectly.

On a side note, I hope Pav is ok as it seems Evia is currently on fire.

totally agree.

 

[Johnny75]

Ulez has been sold on air quality more than climate change. If climate change is the driver it should apply nationally not just to a zone inside the M25 as obviously carbon dioxide isn’t going to stay inside that zone. I suspect the reality is that once large zones are established within major cities driven by air quality concerns the idea will become accepted and rolled out more widely.

Exactly this. It should be countrywide.

At the moment it's a tax on the poor with no alternatives.

If somebody had come up with a scrappage scheme for the poorest or a car company had come up with an ICE/ Electric transmission swap based on car age at a competitive price then people would change.

As it is it is a punitive tax that is saying only the rich can drive and survive.

I'm disappointed in Khan for this as he has this particular power.

 

[Templeton Peck]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684476051878039552