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Keir Starmer at it again..

Labour's fiscal rules are stupid to anyone except those daft enough to think the state is a home or a corner shop.

Thing is the whole electorate have been told that's precisely the case for like 15 years; how do you change/challenge that? And as soon as you do, the election messaging for the opposition is a piece of piss, and will likely be successful.

I won't pretend to know/understand/believe that it's sustainable to run on a permanent deficit (presuming that's the alternative, seems like there's only two options really) and haven't got the energy for that conversation, but optically/politically even, how would you do it and survive in power?
 
Thing is the whole electorate have been told that's precisely the case for like 15 years; how do you change/challenge that? And as soon as you do, the election messaging for the opposition is a piece of piss, and will likely be successful.

I won't pretend to know/understand/believe that it's sustainable to run on a permanent deficit (presuming that's the alternative, seems like there's only two options really) and haven't got the energy for that conversation, but optically/politically even, how would you do it and survive in power?
2017, the narrative from Labour was significantly different to the status quo.


There is absolutely no way that much of this manifesto could have been delivered and keep the fiscal rules that have been the straight jacket of governments since 2010.

Labour 2017 12,877,918
Labour 2024 9,708,716

To be clear, I am not suggesting that over 3 million more people voted Labour in 2017 because they were ardently in favour of expanding the state and hiking taxes - there are Brexit related contexts in 2017 (as well as a piss poor Tory campaign) that had an impact on that election. It does show, however, that at the right time an alternative narrative can break through and not be roundly rejected.

It is arguable that Labour could have gone into the 2024 election with the 2017 manifesto and still won - the Tories were a shambles and the smaller parties have First Past the Post to contend with. But, it would have meant ditching the commitment to the "fiscal rules".

Would it have gone tits up in power? Possibly. But the Winter Fuel Allowance wouldn't have been cut. The Budget would have focused tax rises on wealth.

We have only had a budget surplus in 7 years since 1975, 4 of those were under Blair and Brown - we are effectively in a permanent deficit and the fiscal rules do little to impact that. Firstly, they are a simple solution to a complex problem and secondly, they are set by Government who can change them at a whim if they don't like the consequences of their rules...the Conservatives changed them frequently.

If fiscal rules are to be of any use, they need to be set by people who know what they are talking about and not Governments. If there was a genuinely independent "fiscal rules body" that set out what a sensible set of rules are to achieve sensible outcomes Governments and those aspiring to govern would have to shape their policy offer to fit something that people had some confidence in.
 
Well if a few more businesses like Amazon paid their taxes here on their receipts in the UK instead of in Luxembourg or Gibraltar then there might be less of a problem.
I agree. So why are the Labour Government not going after corporations, the wealthy, the banks and continuing austerity measures that hit the poorest instead? I guess taking a look at all the lobbyists they've been hosting might give an answer to that.
 
Thing is the whole electorate have been told that's precisely the case for like 15 years; how do you change/challenge that? And as soon as you do, the election messaging for the opposition is a piece of piss, and will likely be successful.

I won't pretend to know/understand/believe that it's sustainable to run on a permanent deficit (presuming that's the alternative, seems like there's only two options really) and haven't got the energy for that conversation, but optically/politically even, how would you do it and survive in power?
Fiscal deficits are the absolute norm. We've barely had surpluses at any point in our history because it's pointless and harmful. Brown knew this but he let the opposition set the narrative. Nobody ever talked about 'the deficit' before 2010 but all of a sudden it was only show in town. Brown should've defended Labour's spending but caved. Result is hundreds of thousands dead, Brexit, resurgent racism and shockingly poor public services.
 
I agree. So why are the Labour Government not going after corporations, the wealthy, the banks and continuing austerity measures that hit the poorest instead? I guess taking a look at all the lobbyists they've been hosting might give an answer to that.
With you completely. I am 100% cynical on this and believe that Labour would last just as long as it takes to get the next half coordinated tory rabble ready to replace them.
 
Fiscal deficits are the absolute norm. We've barely had surpluses at any point in our history because it's pointless and harmful. Brown knew this but he let the opposition set the narrative. Nobody ever talked about 'the deficit' before 2010 but all of a sudden it was only show in town. Brown should've defended Labour's spending but caved. Result is hundreds of thousands dead, Brexit, resurgent racism and shockingly poor public services.
Agreed. A key vulnerability was the sexual identity 'Gotcha' that the Establishment held over Brown and indeed Blair. No comment needed about Heath, Major and Johnson getting away with that one on the other hand. Labour is given a short leash by the Establishment and has to be whiter than white cut crystal clean on anything and everything.
 
I agree. So why are the Labour Government not going after corporations, the wealthy, the banks and continuing austerity measures that hit the poorest instead? I guess taking a look at all the lobbyists they've been hosting might give an answer to that.
They still might in the budget. Not everything needs to be done right now.
 
They still might in the budget. Not everything needs to be done right now.
I understand people clinging into this hope that they will shift stance. But if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck. Pre-election they spent thousands of pounds on hosting corporate lobbyists, promising them that they would be good for businesses. They aren't going to suddenly, or even slowly but surely change that. They are in thrall to neoliberal economic policies. They are the fucking duck.
 
Do they really only get 12 weeks (mainly over Summer recess) to be written off? Is that what politics has come down to now? 3 months?
It's not 3 months though is it? It's all the evidence of how they have conducted themselves and things they have said for years. This is who they are.
 
Well as they are the only viable alternative to what you are slagging off it sort of is, isn't it?
 
Well, I would hope he might wait a little longer before condemning them out of hand.
Do you honestly think they will change? When everything they have said and done indicates that this is exactly who they are. Again, I get people holding out hope that they aren't as shit as they seem, and that optimism is to be applauded, I guess. Their actions and words both pre and post election do not offer much in the way of encouragement to believe this to be likely. They spent much of the pre election hosting parties for corporate lobbyists and have since been preaching about tough decisions for everyone, except remarkably the people those lobbyists work for. Forgive me if I look at this evidence and come to the conclusion that they are shit. As I said, they walk, swim and quack like a duck, they are a fucking duck.

My prediction is that they will do some small things to benefit ordinary people about a year before the next election is due and use that to tell everyone how great they've been. Meanwhile, the NHS will be gradually sold off further to private companies, the wealthy will get wealthier, ordinary people will continue to struggle, and the far right will continue to grow. Hopefully I'm no Nostrodamus, but if I am right, feel free to remember this conversation.
 
So the Labour Party are going to sell off the NHS to private companies? Really?

Even the fucking tories couldn't get away with that sort of thing.
 
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