Keir Starmer at it again..

[Johnny75]

Its a mistake. I guess they realised that the day after announcing it.
Now they have to row back on the policy in a clever way without losing face or looking like they have changed their minds.
There will be something in the next budget, mark my words.

I think you'll be disappointed if you think they're going to row back on it

I think they'll raise the tax threshold for everybody whilst changing capital gains in the budget.

Rachel Reeves will want that good news after this storm.

I have absolutely no problem taking a tax payer funded monetary benefit off those that don't need it.

 

[Walshes Wolves]

They aren't.

Stop reading the Daily Mail, it's shit and it's ruining your brain.

I have never read the Daily Mail. What is your excuse for your brain being ruined?

I remember when the Tory party were discussing changing benefits for the disabled. I said at the time, this was a mean and nasty idea and would give unnecessary suffering to people who already have to suffer to much.

Sunak accused of launching ‘full-on assault on disabled people’

PM criticised for personal independence payment review amid ‘spiralling’ disability welfare bill

www.theguardian.com

Taking off the old and weak, is not my idea od social justice and causes unnecessary worry to many old people, who should be treated better than this.
The government should take more off the big energy companies and not attack the weakest in society.

 

[sycophantia]

There is plenty which can be done without giving money to pensioners who are literally millionaires.

The issue is making sure those in need have access to things such as social tariffs for energy etc. That's an outreach issue and one which will have a long-term impact throughout the year.

Don't think anyone on here is arguing otherwise but there are many pensioners who live solely on their state pension and there's no doubt they are among the poorest people in our society so this policyvis always going to be contentious. As its been said multiple times on this thread the issue is where the limit is set, that's the same for all benefits.

 

[Dire Wolf]

There is plenty which can be done without giving money to pensioners who are literally millionaires.

The issue is making sure those in need have access to things such as social tariffs for energy etc. That's an outreach issue and one which will have a long-term impact throughout the year.

I don't disagree with that, but this idea that there are loads of millionaire pensioners is a bit of a fallacy. Sure, there are some in that lucky situation, and no, they shouldn't be given the same winter fuel payments as others who need it. But the fact that energy companies make enough profits in a week to pay for all winter fuel payments stinks.

Having an Ofgen fit for purpose that sets the tariff at a rate that allows energy bills to be affordable, that transfers some of those profits to the benefit of the customer instead of the offshore investors getting nice fat dividends or CEOs on multi-million pound bonuses would be a good start to resetting the horrendous narrative that the government have created for themselves. But they don't appear to want to do that, and the question of why needs to be examined. The evidence points to the fact that they are firmly wedded to neoliberal economic policies and are beholden to the corporate lobbyists and private capital that has traditionally been Tory territory.

 

[Sniffer]

I don't disagree with that, but this idea that there are loads of millionaire pensioners is a bit of a fallacy. Sure, there are some in that lucky situation, and no, they shouldn't be given the same winter fuel payments as others who need it. But the fact that energy companies make enough profits in a week to pay for all winter fuel payments stinks.

Having an Ofgen fit for purpose that sets the tariff at a rate that allows energy bills to be affordable, that transfers some of those profits to the benefit of the customer instead of the offshore investors getting nice fat dividends or CEOs on multi-million pound bonuses would be a good start to resetting the horrendous narrative that the government have created for themselves. But they don't appear to want to do that, and the question of why needs to be examined. The evidence points to the fact that they are firmly wedded to neoliberal economic policies and are beholden to the corporate lobbyists and private capital that has traditionally been Tory territory.

1 in 5 households in Great Britain, headed by an over-65, has a total wealth of over a million pounds.

 

[sycophantia]

I think you'll be disappointed if you think they're going to row back on it

I think they'll raise the tax threshold for everybody whilst changing capital gains in the budget.

Rachel Reeves will want that good news after this storm.

I have absolutely no problem taking a tax payer funded monetary benefit off those that don't need it.

Think you may be right on the tax threshold, it's fucking scandalous it's been held for so long. The budget is gunna be tough overall I guess, raising the tax threshold paid for partly by this saving would be a small sweetener for the poorest in society.

 

[Tredman]

Don't think anyone on here is arguing otherwise but there are many pensioners who live solely on their state pension and there's no doubt they are among the poorest people in our society so this policyvis always going to be contentious. As its been said multiple times on this thread the issue is where the limit is set, that's the same for all benefits.

Pretty sure that is exactly what I said in my first post.

 

[Dire Wolf]

1 in 5 households in Great Britain, headed by an over-65, has a total wealth of over a million pounds.

So 80% are not millionaires then? And I imagine that worth is tied up in the property? Property bought cheaply 30 years ago and now worth a fortune because of the sky high house prices?

 

[sycophantia]

Pretty sure that is exactly what I said in my first post.

You also said millionaire pensioners shouldn't get anything but should be means tested, which is what every other poster had already said.

You post seemed to suggest every pensioner is well off, if I misconstrued your meaning, I apologise.

 

[Johnny75]

Think you may be right on the tax threshold, it's fucking scandalous it's been held for so long. The budget is gunna be tough overall I guess, raising the tax threshold paid for partly by this saving would be a small sweetener for the poorest in society.

Martin Lewis has a good opinion on this (I refuse to use the word 'take', fucking American shite) when he said that the poorest pensioners will not be affected and those just on the line will be eligible for pension credit and this will be linked to your tax code.

No doubt that some folk will be worse off and that's not good but the current iteration of the Tories fucked this country beyond what people can imagine.

It'll take time to fix and I'm hoping for some investment in the budget.

By giving pay rises to NHS staff and others they are at least trying to put some things right.

 

[Tredman]

You also said millionaire pensioners shouldn't get anything but should be means tested, which is what every other poster had already said.

You post seemed to suggest every pensioner is well off, if I misconstrued your meaning, I apologise.

I didn't quote which is my bad but I was responding to this. We means test child benefit and have done for many years, some pensioners are for sure very vulnerable but lets not pretend they, as a group, were not over-prioritised during the previous government's time

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

If you think that Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer are even remotely on the same page then I don't know what to tell you.

That's OK then.

 

[Sniffer]

So 80% are not millionaires then? And I imagine that worth is tied up in the property? Property bought cheaply 30 years ago and now worth a fortune because of the sky high house prices?

2.4m pensioners is loads and that goes up to 3m pensioners living in households with a total wealth of over £1m

Personally I think that young working people, many of whom the idea of owning a property is out of the question, should not be paying taxes to be distributed to parts of society who are so asset rich. I've not got a fully costed solution but decreasing the rate at which pensioners start paying the 40% rate of tax so that a winter payment is clawed back is where I'd be looking first. I'd also be looking at tapering the state pension away from those who pay the top level of tax.

 

[sycophantia]

I didn't quote which is my bad but I was responding to this. We means test child benefit and have done for many years, some pensioners are for sure very vulnerable but lets not pretend they, as a group, were not over-prioritised during the previous government's time

View attachment 11568

Fair enough, I don't think pensioners were 'over-prioritised' though, rather for decades were under- prioritised. Well just have to disagree on that.

 

[lemonjelly]

Anyone would think pensioners only get a state pension.
The welfare bill sees over half of its expenditure go towards the over 60's. IIRC it's approx 56% of the whole welfare budget. It's never cut, because the over 60's tend to vote.
In addition to the state pension, pensioners can, if eligible qualify for a number of top ups.
If they have health issues, they can claim Attendance Allowance to meet this. This is non taxable, and not classed as income with other benefits.
They can apply for pension credit to given them a minimum income. Depending on circumstances (eg disability) how much they qualify for may be increased.
They qualify for subsidised travel costs, and help with prescriptions.
They may (income dependent) qualify for council tax relief.
They also have higher capital thresh-holds when it comes to means tested benefits.

Part of the issue with this, is it comes across as a stand alone policy/decision. Had it been announced as part of a wider package through a budget, it would probably get less attention.

As someone identified earlier, addressing the volume of people not claiming pension credit is key. There are approx a million people not claiming this when they are entitled. campaigns and support to help with this is key. For example, the pension credit form is something like 300 questions. That's a complex and time consuming commitment!

 

[Walshes Wolves]

So, if someone gets one pence over the limit to recieve pension credit, the person who does get pension credit, is going to be £200 or £300 better off than the person who won't be receiving it. They are both poor, but one has just been made poorer than they were before.
At the same time energy companies are making huge profits. I would like to think a Labour government would take from the energy companies and not from those who are one pence over the pension credit threshold.

 

[lemonjelly]

no, that isn't correct.
But the wider point is ensuring those with genuine frailties/disabilities and/or low incomes are protected & have access to the support, care and finance needed.
Pension credit is means tested, so how much you qualify for depends on your personal and financial circumstances.
Make PC & other related benefits easier to claim (reduce the complexity & length of the forms) & campaign effectively to get those who can claim to make successful applications to do so.
An attendance allowance form will take over 2 hours to complete. Other sections by Dr's add time. Processing them takes over 3 months. All of which are barriers. (I've completed loads of such forms for people who died before getting decisions). Other barriers include the hostility towards claiming disability benefits fostered by governments since 2010.
Most of the benefits system is wholly inefficient.

 

[Walshes Wolves]

no, that isn't correct.
But the wider point is ensuring those with genuine frailties/disabilities and/or low incomes are protected & have access to the support, care and finance needed.
Pension credit is means tested, so how much you qualify for depends on your personal and financial circumstances.
Make PC & other related benefits easier to claim (reduce the complexity & length of the forms) & campaign effectively to get those who can claim to make successful applications to do so.
An attendance allowance form will take over 2 hours to complete. Other sections by Dr's add time. Processing them takes over 3 months. All of which are barriers. (I've completed loads of such forms for people who died before getting decisions). Other barriers include the hostility towards claiming disability benefits fostered by governments since 2010.
Most of the benefits system is wholly inefficient.

As far as I can make out, my statement is correct, if you are on less than £11400 a year, you will be entitled to pension credit and then you will be entitled to the winter fuel payment of £200 or £300, depending on your age. The fuel allowance is not means tested, but pension credit is, depending on how much below the threshold you are.. It is possible to be getting £11400 a year and no pension credit, If you are on less than that you will get pension credit and be entitled to the full fuel allowance, which is not means tested.
So my statement is correct. Someone can be getting one pence less than another person and gets means tested Pension credit, but will recieve the maximum amount of the fuel allowancevf his age allows him to get and be £200 or £300 better off, than the other person, who didn't qualify for state pension by one pence.
I agree with the rest of your post.

What is the winter fuel payment, how much is it worth and who can get it?

The government's plans to limit the payment have been criticised by some MPs, unions and charities.

www.bbc.com

 

[Templeton Peck]

Pensioners are not the poorest people in society. Paying benefits to rich pensioners while kids are starving should make people as angry as the small number of pensioners affected by not correctly means testing this benefit.

Labour also voted to keep the two child benefit cap.

 

[leedswolf]

Keir Starmer says he wants to “reset” Britain’s relationship with Europe. But two months into his premiership, the EU is starting to wonder whether he really means it.

EU officials and diplomats have told POLITICO they are increasingly doubtful that — beyond warm rhetoric — the new U.K. prime minister is all that keen on walking back on the Brexit breach with Europe.

Starmer’s swift rejection of EU priorities such as establishing a youth mobility scheme and rejoining the Erasmus exchange program has gone down badly in European capitals and is taking a toll on early optimism about the new British government.