[FA Cup 3rd Rnd] Liverpool 2-2 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[The Saturday Boy]

you almost have to forget most of what you instinctively know is right to understand some of the refereeing and their attempts to justify their shitness. it’s so clear that they have little feel for the game and hardly any more interest in getting to the right decision.

VAR has led to so much tinkering of the rules of the game to make VAR work that the important people, supporters, can no longer understand what’s going on - in the stadium or watching on TV.

Salah was clearly in an offside position when the ball was played, being in an offside position is not an offence but…

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
  • rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
  • been deliberately saved by any opponent

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

This makes absolute sense to me, Toti attempts to stop a ball that is very close to the goal and Salah gained an advantage by being in an offside position.

Law 11 - Offside

IFAB Laws of the Game

www.thefa.com

What I can’t see in these rules is anything that suggests why the goal was allowed unless it is an interpretation of these rules - as in “was it a save?” If that is the case, offside decisions are not factual…they can be subjective and we are being fed a yarn by those in power.

If VAR didn’t exist then I think Toti‘s goal is still disallowed as the Asst Referee called it offside. The Asst Referee didn’t flag for Salah at any point, the goal would have stood.

For me, the bigger issue here is Salah’s goal…I don’t understand how it stood.

 

[jdrodrigues]

VAR has led to so much tinkering of the rules of the game to make VAR work that the important people, supporters, can no longer understand what’s going on - in the stadium or watching on TV.

Salah was clearly in an offside position when the ball was played, being in an offside position is not an offence but…



This makes absolute sense to me, Toti attempts to stop a ball that is very close to the goal and Salah gained an advantage by being in an offside position.

Law 11 - Offside

IFAB Laws of the Game

www.thefa.com

What I can’t see in these rules is anything that suggests why the goal was allowed unless it is an interpretation of these rules - as in “was it a save?” If that is the case, offside decisions are not factual…they can be subjective and we are being fed a yarn by those in power.

If VAR didn’t exist then I think Toti‘s goal is still disallowed as the Asst Referee called it offside. The Asst Referee didn’t flag for Salah at any point, the goal would have stood.

For me, the bigger issue here is Salah’s goal…I don’t understand how it stood.

Both decisions are easy to understand. Liverpool.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Think Toti is behind ball anyway there so wasn’t off.

Woke up and I’m still not happy. I don’t think this is an Anfield thing, I think there are blind spots in the cameras at all grounds. And this Juve example like I mentioned plus the Saka one. https://www.thisisanfield.com/2022/...tion-pep-awaits-biggest-test-latest-lfc-news/

 

[Jinky]

It’ll be forgotten by anyone who isn’t affiliated with Wolves in a couple of days time. The referee, officials and VAR don’t need to explain themselves, they just go on to the next game, and it’s us that are left to just get on with it.

I want us to do them over in the replay, but you can just picture Liverpool winning the whole thing now, and of course, the record books will show them as winners - not that they were gifted a draw through dodgy decisions in the 3rd round.

The whole situation stinks but nothing will happen. That’s why I wanted Julen to kick an absolute stink up and why Wolves should release the tactical footage showing he’s onside if they have it.

 

[Johnny75]

Never understand why people have so much vitriol against someone is doing their best.
He's not a cunt or whatever, he's just not a very good coach and a terrible man manager, the main criticism should be at the people who employed him.

Mike Dean is a cunt, he was before the game and he is afterwards. A genuinely horrible, arrogant prick of a human.

(I know you were talking about Lage but I thought I'd give an example of vitriol for your understanding)

 

[Paul]

I think there are blind spots in the cameras at all grounds.

Being cynical I would have thought the 6yards from the goal line would be quite crucial

 

[Tony Towner]

@The Saturday Boy. You are interpreting it the wrong way. What it means is if someone is stood offside in the penalty box someone shoots, it is saved and the ball drops to the player and they score then that is offside. The way it was explained to me was to consider did the opposition have an attempt to clear the ball, if they did it becomes second phase and falls into this element of the law you posted



"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."



Where you are correct is it comes down to interpretation. What has been interpreted is that Toti had a reasonable chance to play the ball, the fact he cocked it up becomes irrelevant. It assumes that it is reasonable to expect he heads that ball away, once he does what he does then it becomes a new passage of play and Salah is onside, whereas if it were a throughball he threw his leg at and it deflected to Salah then it would be pulled up for offside.



Assume he was standing there, Toti had the ball at his feet, played a backpass to Sarkic, Salah intercepted and he scored, well it's been interpreted in that way.



I'm not saying any of that is correct, just trying to explain how it has been interpreted as offside within the law you posted

 

[Mel Evo]

Having woken up to a new day I’ve decided Ive reconciled myself to it all. There is no subconscious bias to the bigger clubs that results in officials taking wild stabs in the dark to favour them. The refereeing team are just doing their best, on the pitch and in the studio. We put up a great performance which will stand us in good stead for the coming weeks. Overall, proud of the boys and got a spring in my step.

Or… I’m still so fuming mad I just hurt my toe kicking a fence post in the middle of nowhere while walking the dog.

 

[Paul]

Not being prone to tinfoil hat theories after watching the BBC coverage numerous times, the linesman doesn't flag even after the ball went in and he definitely started moving back to the half way line, something's not right here

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

It’s annoying but I’m just pleased it wasn’t a league game where we’d have been robbed of 2 vital points.

We played well and seem to be getting better. I’m enjoying watching Wolves again

 

[BillyDee]

Not being prone to tinfoil hat theories after watching the BBC coverage numerous times, the linesman doesn't flag even after the ball went in and he definitely started moving back to the half way line, something's not right here

This is it. There's is a long time from the Hwang header to Toti getting the ball. If that is supposed to be when the off side occurs, why does the assistant ref wait so long to flag?

 

[Langers]

The difference under Lopetegui is absolutely huge - where the hell did that performance come from? Set up correctly, pressing well, good individual performances, dangerous on the break, creating chances - this is an enormous turn around in very little time, and gives me a lot more hope for the future.

The disallowed goal is utterly farcical and we've every right to be furious - absolutely no way that's forensically examined if that's at the other end. We've been cheated out of a superb, famous, deserved victory because the officials fucked up by trying to find something wrong with a perfectly decent goal.

We still need some new players and hopefully we can stop some of the individual errors once the confidence and belief continue to grow, but really pleased with us yesterday.

Just need to keep this going and get points on the board.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

@The Saturday Boy. You are interpreting it the wrong way. What it means is if someone is stood offside in the penalty box someone shoots, it is saved and the ball drops to the player and they score then that is offside. The way it was explained to me was to consider did the opposition have an attempt to clear the ball, if they did it becomes second phase and falls into this element of the law you posted



"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."



Where you are correct is it comes down to interpretation. What has been interpreted is that Toti had a reasonable chance to play the ball, the fact he cocked it up becomes irrelevant. It assumes that it is reasonable to expect he heads that ball away, once he does what he does then it becomes a new passage of play and Salah is onside, whereas if it were a throughball he threw his leg at and it deflected to Salah then it would be pulled up for offside.



Assume he was standing there, Toti had the ball at his feet, played a backpass to Sarkic, Salah intercepted and he scored, well it's been interpreted in that way.



I'm not saying any of that is correct, just trying to explain how it has been interpreted as offside within the law you posted

Where are those words in the written rules? Toti attempted to stop the ball, the definition of a save.

The point I was making is that we are told offside is a matter of fact, it is not.

 

[Tony Towner]

I've quoted it and yes it's been a matter of interpretation not fact for about 30 years since they introduced the interfering with play element to offside. If you don't want interpretation then you need the law as it existed in the 80s

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Looking on the bright side, as it might represent Liverpool at least our ball should be nice and hot in the draw bag later.

 

[nimrod]

@The Saturday Boy. You are interpreting it the wrong way. What it means is if someone is stood offside in the penalty box someone shoots, it is saved and the ball drops to the player and they score then that is offside. The way it was explained to me was to consider did the opposition have an attempt to clear the ball, if they did it becomes second phase and falls into this element of the law you posted
"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."
Where you are correct is it comes down to interpretation. What has been interpreted is that Toti had a reasonable chance to play the ball, the fact he cocked it up becomes irrelevant. It assumes that it is reasonable to expect he heads that ball away, once he does what he does then it becomes a new passage of play and Salah is onside, whereas if it were a throughball he threw his leg at and it deflected to Salah then it would be pulled up for offside.

Assume he was standing there, Toti had the ball at his feet, played a backpass to Sarkic, Salah intercepted and he scored, well it's been interpreted in that way.

I'm not saying any of that is correct, just trying to explain how it has been interpreted as offside within the law you posted

I agree it’s their stance and also bullshit to apply it to the tori clearance attempt.

applying the same logic, wouldn’t any deliberate touch by a defender from a corner automatically play a corner taker onside assuming he isn’t still hanging around the touch line. I was just trying to check if there was a definitive touch by a liverpool defender.

not that I think nunes is off anyway or that the twats even bothered to check they were being consistent.

have any refs actually ever explained at what point a corner taker is deemed to become onside again (eg phases) assuming they are ever technically off.

 

[AndyWolves]

This is it. There's is a long time from the Hwang header to Toti getting the ball. If that is supposed to be when the off side occurs, why does the assistant ref wait so long to flag?

Like the blindsman got a signal or something?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611874355675267072

Things are strange and I'm starting to worry...

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Two liverpool fans punditing on MOTD and they both say that Salahs should have been disallowed and the Toti goal couldn’t be proved to be off. Says it all.

Reading through RAWK and even they are generally saying the same.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I've quoted it and yes it's been a matter of interpretation not fact for about 30 years since they introduced the interfering with play element to offside. If you don't want interpretation then you need the law as it existed in the 80s

And I have quoted what a deliberate save is according to the rules.

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

I genuinely don’t understand how the interpretation you have provided means it is a goal. Toti attempted to stop the ball going close to the goal and Salah was in an offside position ”very close to the goal”

 

[Tony Towner]

If you don't get it from my last description then there's nothing more I can say. Toti did not attempt to save the ball, he played it in their view