Burnley (H) Wed 1st Dec 7:30pm (Amazon Prime) build up & match thread

[MARKakaJIM]

Love how often people try to claim almost the entire system of the team was altered to accommodate Doherty, if he was that shit why would you effectively build a game plan around him? They don't ask anything that different of Semedo to what they did of Doherty, the former is more steady but the latter was almost certainly more impactful.

 

[1986]

Burnley's form leading into this match isn't that bad at all . They're drawing a lot of matches - scored three against Palace and conceded 3 as well . Drew with Chelsea as well .
Dyche will get them out of that relegation zone - have little doubt on that .

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Burnley's form leading into this match isn't that bad at all . They're drawing a lot of matches - scored three against Palace and conceded 3 as well . Drew with Chelsea as well .
Dyche will get them out of that relegation zone - have little doubt on that .

They haven't won away yet though.....

 

[Tredman]

Exciting game tomorrow then...

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Love how often people try to claim almost the entire system of the team was altered to accommodate Doherty, if he was that shit why would you effectively build a game plan around him? They don't ask anything that different of Semedo to what they did of Doherty, the former is more steady but the latter was almost certainly more impactful.

We did in the sense that one of the CMs and one of the CHs always had to fill the gap that he'd leave because he wouldn't/couldn't track back once he was caught upfield. Also he never ever ever went outside the opposing LB/LWB and put crosses in, because he can't beat a man or cross. Not a hope he's crossing from deep either, may as well just boot it out for a goal kick and have done with it.

Absolutely no-one ever plays wingback in the same way he did for us, you could see the difference when Ireland tried playing him in a conventional 3-5-2/3-4-3 shape, he looked clueless.

We definitely had to make a lot of allowances for what he can't do. This is not to suggest that Semedo is the best replacement we could have found, especially for the money spent.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

We did in the sense that one of the CMs and one of the CHs always had to fill the gap that he'd leave because he wouldn't/couldn't track back once he was caught upfield. Also he never ever ever went outside the opposing LB/LWB and put crosses in, because he can't beat a man or cross. Not a hope he's crossing from deep either, may as well just boot it out for a goal kick and have done with it.

Absolutely no-one ever plays wingback in the same way he did for us, you could see the difference when Ireland tried playing him in a conventional 3-5-2/3-4-3 shape, he looked clueless.

We definitely had to make a lot of allowances for what he can't do. This is not to suggest that Semedo is the best replacement we could have found, especially for the money spent.

The crossing point is no different to the opposite when Jonny plays though as he's on his weaker foot, never goes outside and never delivers anything of note from any position really. No-one ever calls him out for it though, he's up there with the least criticised players in the whole squad.

I don't see anything untoward with the defensive cover either, that's surely part and parcel of having wingbacks with an extra centre half behind? They're more advanced than a fullback, expected to do more attacking and so inevitably more likely to get caught up field. The extra centre half is the insurance against that and it's just part of their role in that formation that they will come across to cover wider areas at times.

Doherty was obviously far from perfect but that system got the best out of him with very little detriment to anyone else, is there anyone in the squad seen a massive improvement in their game since the burden of Doherty was lifted?

 

[Jinky]

Who would sign him if he hadn't played for a year?

There would be loads of takers for him on the continent. Whether they'd offer us what we want is another matter, but we might just want his wages off our bill.

 

[Alan]

I don't think there's a chance in hell that a right side of defense featuring Kilman + Doc is as assured defensively as our current Kilman + Semedo pairing.

 

[sycophantia]

Jonny is a different class altogether, far and away our best defender (yes even Boly imo) rarely makes defensive mistakes, gets forward well enough although I agree he could be better from an offensive point. Can't remember how many goals assists he has. I have memories in the past of people calling for him to be dropped for Vinagre cos he doesn't offer enough in attack.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Doherty was obviously far from perfect but that system got the best out of him with very little detriment to anyone else, is there anyone in the squad seen a massive improvement in their game since the burden of Doherty was lifted?

Neves gets forward more, he did last season too.

 

[Alan]

Jonny is a different class altogether, far and away our best defender (yes even Boly imo) rarely makes defensive mistakes, gets forward well enough although I agree he could be better from an offensive point. Can't remember how many goals assists he has. I have memories in the past of people calling for him to be dropped for Vinagre cos he doesn't offer enough in attack.

I'm not sure Boly is even our best CB anymore.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Neves gets forward more, he did last season too.

2 goals in open play to show for it? Hardly revolutionary is it?

It's not like the whole team was really hamstrung by Doherty and now free of those shackles they can play in a more ordered way, stopping up the defense and freeing up the attack. If anything the team has probably got worse in both metrics since he left I imagine?

 

[Alan]

We have the fourth best GC (GA?) record in the league, so we certainly aren't missing Doc from that perspective.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

2 goals in open play to show for it? Hardly revolutionary is it?

It's not like the whole team was really hamstrung by Doherty and now free of those shackles they can play in a more ordered way, stopping up the defense and freeing up the attack. If anything the team has probably got worse in both metrics since he left I imagine?

I didn't say he'd turned into Frank Lampard, did I.

I said he gets forward more, you'll have to take my word for that.

 

[Jinky]

Just popping this in here because it looks like a few of you have bought your short memories to the forum today.

Doherty turned his game around immeasurably after Nuno took over, and was a vital part of our team in some of the best years I've had supporting the club. This insistence to slate everything about him now he's gone is weird and disrespectful*

*Apologies in advance if that upsets you.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I slated him while he was here, he was shit.

 

[Alan]

I don't think anyone can or should take anything away from Doc's time here under Nuno (maybe Dan would). But equally his career at this level ended the moment he left Wolves.

That's all the proof I need to say with confidence that his success here was not sustainable. He did an excellent job for us for two years and punched well above his weight class during that time. But that was never something we could rely on continuing long term, and the club was right to move him on when he said he wanted to go.

 

[AndyWolves]

Good at scoring goals, not so good at the other bits

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I don't think anyone can or should take anything away from Doc's time here under Nuno (maybe Dan would). But equally his career at this level ended the moment he left Wolves.

That's all the proof I need to say with confidence that his success here was not sustainable. He did an excellent job for us for two years and punched well above his weight class during that time. But that was never something we could rely on continuing long term, and the club was right to move him on when he said he wanted to go.

Just because he's shit at Spurs doesn't mean he'd have gone to shit at Wolves.

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't think there's a chance in hell that a right side of defense featuring Kilman + Doc is as assured defensively as our current Kilman + Semedo pairing.

Different players. Semedo is better defensively, Doherty more effective going forwards. He'd have at least 3 goals this season if presented with the chances Semedo has missed.
Neither is ideal for our wing back system.