Wolves 1-2 Spurs: Verdict Thread

[NoodleWolf]

Guys, this is so cringeworthy to read. Take it to PMs or just, y'know, go take a walk in the fresh air or something.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Yes not all are. But the marking you make on a positional attack from your opponent on the flanks, is or should be as close as the one you do on set pieces. If nothing more, just because nobody is doing man to man marking nowadays.

In theory perhaps but in practice you're not always going to get the same result.

You've got almost endless time to setup to defend a freekick or a corner, spend hours rehearsing the routine on the training ground and play things out in near identical fashion. You're never likely to get the same repetition in open play, the build up will be far more chaotic, the time to setup up in your predefined position doesn't occur to anything like the same extent, it's all far more fluid and you'll end up with attacking players in different positions and defensive players covering one another depending on how the play has developed.

You can certainly see a trend in your images for a tendency for attacking players to be left in space at the far post, though you've obviously selected those images purely for that basis and so without looking at a wider sample it's difficult to see whether or not that's something that Wolves do by design all of the time or just an occasional mistake that seems to be quite ruthlessly punished. On set pieces I think you could generally make a reasonable case for concentrating majority of your defenders and particularly your best headers of the ball in the central area of the goal as those areas provide the attackers with the most goal to aim at and make life difficult for your keeper from close range, you force the attackers to attack the ball from outside of the posts and you narrow the angle to assist your goalkeeper in theory. Sometimes you do need to adapt though, in some situations teams or even just individuals will see the pattern and look for a way to get around it, as we saw with Vertonghen yesterday hanging out back giving himself time and space to attack the ball, if a team is regularly looking to exploit areas like that then you need to do something to counteract it by either matching up man for man on a particular threat or at least moving a player out there to restrict the space and hamper their ability to attack the ball.

There used to be a lot of problems with defending set pieces when Nuno first arrived, from what I remember anyway, though that's largely gone away. I think those situations, and at times defending the ball from out wide generally, is one of few areas that could see a reasonable improvement if Coady were to be replaced by a more natural centre half, aerial battles are still a weaker part of his game and whether it's be necessity or design that he always try to keep himself as a free man in those situations there will always be occasions where he has no choice but to pick up a man and battle it out.

 

[SLB]

Ooh, bit of homophobia too. Always a nice way to liven up the experience.

Cause being a cock expert is an insult? Is anything wrong about it sir?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Ooh, bit of homophobia too. Always a nice way to liven up the experience.

Where's the homophobia?

 

[BGreenWolf]

Cause being a cock expert is an insult? Is anything wrong about it sir?

Sod off. You knew exactly what you were doing.

 

[SLB]

In theory perhaps but in practice you're not always going to get the same result.

You've got almost endless time to setup to defend a freekick or a corner, spend hours rehearsing the routine on the training ground and play things out in near identical fashion. You're never likely to get the same repetition in open play, the build up will be far more chaotic, the time to setup up in your predefined position doesn't occur to anything like the same extent, it's all far more fluid and you'll end up with attacking players in different positions and defensive players covering one another depending on how the play has developed.

You can certainly see a trend in your images for a tendency for attacking players to be left in space at the far post, though you've obviously selected those images purely for that basis and so without looking at a wider sample it's difficult to see whether or not that's something that Wolves do by design all of the time or just an occasional mistake that seems to be quite ruthlessly punished. On set pieces I think you could generally make a reasonable case for concentrating majority of your defenders and particularly your best headers of the ball in the central area of the goal as those areas provide the attackers with the most goal to aim at and make life difficult for your keeper from close range, you force the attackers to attack the ball from outside of the posts and you narrow the angle to assist your goalkeeper in theory. Sometimes you do need to adapt though, in some situations teams or even just individuals will see the pattern and look for a way to get around it, as we saw with Vertonghen yesterday hanging out back giving himself time and space to attack the ball, if a team is regularly looking to exploit areas like that then you need to do something to counteract it by either matching up man for man on a particular threat or at least moving a player out there to restrict the space and hamper their ability to attack the ball.

There used to be a lot of problems with defending set pieces when Nuno first arrived, from what I remember anyway, though that's largely gone away. I think those situations, and at times defending the ball from out wide generally, is one of few areas that could see a reasonable improvement if Coady were to be replaced by a more natural centre half, aerial battles are still a weaker part of his game and whether it's be necessity or design that he always try to keep himself as a free man in those situations there will always be occasions where he has no choice but to pick up a man and battle it out.

Yes you are right, you will never be able to defend it the same way you do against set pieces. But that should be your goal.

And yes you should not follow a pattern. But you don't have to. In fact you should not do it because like you said, your opponent will find a way to get around it.

Most of those goals are not that. Take Sheffield goal for example. That Sheffield player movement is a no brainer. Maybe you can say "well maybe if the defender was a bit more experienced he would not fall for it". Which is true but it's still a very poor approach.

Probably you don't follow Brazilian football, but I recommend watching some Flamengo set pieces defending. I guarantee that if they have 5 free kicks against them on the exact same position, they will have 5 different approaches. And be successful on all or close to it. And as you know Brazilian league level, specially when it comes do defending is not too notch. But the manager tactical work made the difference.

 

[Johnny75]

In theory perhaps but in practice you're not always going to get the same result.

It's not even correct in theory. Wolves bring back Raul into the box to defend set plays so you're one player out to start with. You've then got the difference between where the opposition are and where we set up on set plays and open play. They aren't anywhere near the same. Opposition defenders are usually bought up as they are the best headers of the ball and tend to be picked up by our best headers of the ball either by man marking or zonal.

So no, it isn't even close.

You've got almost endless time to setup to defend a freekick or a corner, spend hours rehearsing the routine on the training ground and play things out in near identical fashion. You're never likely to get the same repetition in open play, the build up will be far more chaotic, the time to setup up in your predefined position doesn't occur to anything like the same extent, it's all far more fluid and you'll end up with attacking players in different positions and defensive players covering one another depending on how the play has developed.

There are scouts who look at opposition set plays and analysts of game film who look over player and ball movement/ timing so set plays can be adjusted game to game whilst still keeping the essence of what you do, which is why still shots are a waste of time as they have no context as to why the player may be free. You can't do that with open play, as there is no way you can have predefined mistakes or ricochets built into your training regime, there are too many variables, it is all tactical on the managers behlaf of where he wants his players to go but that can't allow for Doc having a brain fart or Donk missing a header.

You can certainly see a trend in your images for a tendency for attacking players to be left in space at the far post, though you've obviously selected those images purely for that basis and so without looking at a wider sample it's difficult to see whether or not that's something that Wolves do by design all of the time or just an occasional mistake that seems to be quite ruthlessly punished. On set pieces I think you could generally make a reasonable case for concentrating majority of your defenders and particularly your best headers of the ball in the central area of the goal as those areas provide the attackers with the most goal to aim at and make life difficult for your keeper from close range, you force the attackers to attack the ball from outside of the posts and you narrow the angle to assist your goalkeeper in theory. Sometimes you do need to adapt though, in some situations teams or even just individuals will see the pattern and look for a way to get around it, as we saw with Vertonghen yesterday hanging out back giving himself time and space to attack the ball, if a team is regularly looking to exploit areas like that then you need to do something to counteract it by either matching up man for man on a particular threat or at least moving a player out there to restrict the space and hamper their ability to attack the ball.

Only Vertonghen was marked at the set piece, he backed off and the defender didn't go with him so left him unmarked inside the back post. Adama or Moutinho may well be covering that position but with Adama being injured it would be hard to pin the blame on him at that point. It looks like an individual error rather than a positional one.

There used to be a lot of problems with defending set pieces when Nuno first arrived, from what I remember anyway, though that's largely gone away. I think those situations, and at times defending the ball from out wide generally, is one of few areas that could see a reasonable improvement if Coady were to be replaced by a more natural centre half, aerial battles are still a weaker part of his game and whether it's be necessity or design that he always try to keep himself as a free man in those situations there will always be occasions where he has no choice but to pick up a man and battle it out.

I think with having 3 midfielders in defence you are always going to be weaker at set plays, normally it doesn't bother us that much but we do miss Boly at set-plays.

 

[SLB]

It's not even correct in theory. Wolves bring back Raul into the box to defend set plays so you're one player out to start with. You've then got the difference between where the opposition are and where we set up on set plays and open play. They aren't anywhere near the same. Opposition defenders are usually bought up as they are the best headers of the ball and tend to be picked up by our best headers of the ball either by man marking or zonal.

So no, it isn't even close.



There are scouts who look at opposition set plays and analysts of game film who look over player and ball movement/ timing so set plays can be adjusted game to game whilst still keeping the essence of what you do, which is why still shots are a waste of time as they have no context as to why the player may be free. You can't do that with open play, as there is no way you can have predefined mistakes or ricochets built into your training regime, there are too many variables, it is all tactical on the managers behlaf of where he wants his players to go but that can't allow for Doc having a brain fart or Donk missing a header.



Only Vertonghen was marked at the set piece, he backed off and the defender didn't go with him so left him unmarked inside the back post. Adama or Moutinho may well be covering that position but with Adama being injured it would be hard to pin the blame on him at that point. It looks like an individual error rather than a positional one.



I think with having 3 midfielders in defence you are always going to be weaker at set plays, normally it doesn't bother us that much but we do miss Boly at set-plays.

I'm sorry but i have to take this to another forum. It's hilarious. That Raul remark is something else.

3 midfielders affecting set pieces defense is extraordinary too. Amazing.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Yes you are right, you will never be able to defend it the same way you do against set pieces. But that should be your goal.

And yes you should not follow a pattern. But you don't have to. In fact you should not do it because like you said, your opponent will find a way to get around it.

Most of those goals are not that. Take Sheffield goal for example. That Sheffield player movement is a no brainer. Maybe you can say "well maybe if the defender was a bit more experienced he would not fall for it". Which is true but it's still a very poor approach.

Probably you don't follow Brazilian football, but I recommend watching some Flamengo set pieces defending. I guarantee that if they have 5 free kicks against them on the exact same position, they will have 5 different approaches. And be successful on all or close to it. And as you know Brazilian league level, specially when it comes do defending is not too notch. But the manager tactical work made the difference.

I don't think the Sheff Utd goal is anything to do with experience, it's just Doherty on his heels or not paying enough attention, he was out on the edge of the box marking the player that makes the initial challenge for the cross but doesn't go with him quickly enough and that leads to Dendoncker coming out to challenge to make sure he can't get a free header on goal. Unfortunately for Wolves the ball evades both and drops to a now unmarked Mousset for the goal, if Doherty had stuck with his man better then Dendoncker has no need to get drawn into the challenge and stays in place keeping an eye on the goal scorer.

Coincidentally the same thing that let Doherty down in the defending of that goal was what enabled him to score at the other end, he gambled early on getting in to the box anticipating a cross from Jimenez, think it was McGoldrick marking him that wasn't alert to the movement and by the time the cross came over there was no chance of him or anyone else getting near Doherty to make a challenge on him.

 

[Banjo]

Perhaps we should get Marco Silva in to sort out the defence?

Lol. Quite.

 

[SLB]

I don't think the Sheff Utd goal is anything to do with experience, it's just Doherty on his heels or not paying enough attention, he was out on the edge of the box marking the player that makes the initial challenge for the cross but doesn't go with him quickly enough and that leads to Dendoncker coming out to challenge to make sure he can't get a free header on goal. Unfortunately for Wolves the ball evades both and drops to a now unmarked Mousset for the goal, if Doherty had stuck with his man better then Dendoncker has no need to get drawn into the challenge and stays in place keeping an eye on the goal scorer.

Coincidentally the same thing that let Doherty down in the defending of that goal was what enabled him to score at the other end, he gambled early on getting in to the box anticipating a cross from Jimenez, think it was McGoldrick marking him that wasn't alert to the movement and by the time the cross came over there was no chance of him or anyone else getting near Doherty to make a challenge on him.

That Doherty goal is a typical NES play. And a quality one actually he used it well even in Valencia. He actually should have played more times with Wolves formation when he was with Valencia. He had players to fit it well. I remember a game against Real that it did wonders.

I'm not a fundamentalist and I give credit where credit is due. And even though some teams should know better by now it's still a quality play and hard to defend.

In England he uses it from the beginning because even when using 3 midfielders, most teams uses 2 of them with attacking characteristics. Which leads NES to have a midfield advantage most of the time. And Raul is very good off the ball and a very intelligent player. The way he drags the defenders so the wingers can appear so easily unmarked is usually a 2 men job.

 

[Pablowolf]

I'm sorry but i have to take this to another forum. It's hilarious. That Raul remark is something else.

3 midfielders affecting set pieces defense is extraordinary too. Amazing.

So that two sites can think you're a c***?

 

[SLB]

So that two sites can think you're a c***?

Nah. This forum is browsed and commented more than you think.

Also for a non homophobic forum, you clearly mention men genitalia too much.

 

[Tony Towner]

Anybody like to guess which side has conceded the most set pieces goals since the start of last season?

 

[SLB]

And Marco Silva is also way too popular too.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Anybody like to guess which side has conceded the most set pieces goals since the start of last season?

Ohh I know this one,

not just last season, heard a stat a few weeks ago before he got the boot that over his whole period in England with Hull, Watford and Everton (so you cant blame the personnel) his sides conceded twice as many goals from set plays then the next highest manager teams did.

 

[b3h]

Maybe Traore could have done more on the 2nd goal, racism and injury aside

 

[darlowolf64]

Maybe Traore could have done more on the 2nd goal, racism and injury aside

He just switched off. If Nuno had told him to just occupy the space he was in, Vertonghan wouldn't have gone to the box but held back to mark Adama.
Once he went back towards the box, Vertonghen followed, so Adama should have been made aware that he was heading to the area.

Lack of communication by players, a simple shout and point would have solved that

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

You tell me I'm not a cock expert. Maybe you are?

You don't need to know it all because you know nothing. Yours posts are just a giant pile of crap from someone who keeps trying to convince himself and others that actually have some football knowledge.

You may fool some and you'll never fool all. You are a football ignorant and no matter how hard you try to fake it otherwise you'll never achieve it. Sorry.

man, you talk more bollocks in half a sentence than Boris in three years.
please give it a rest. i don't write on here so much, but you just cannot stop the bollocks. have all the other threads banned you?
and are our mods asleep,
dump this twat and lets get on with banter!

 

[Rui_CostCo]

“It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. And we of ̶S̶p̶u̶r̶s̶ Wolves have set our sights very high, so high in fact that even failure will have in it an echo of glory.”