The Road to Russia 2018

[Deutsch Wolf]

Besides which, as I alluded to earlier - if you seriously think that the Premier League, having leveraged itself to a position where it is the richest league in the world by a country mile, is suddenly going to expel reams of foreign players and impose limits on who clubs can sign, I'll have a pint of what you're drinking. Not going to happen.

They'll get some kind of exemption whatever bonkers rules the Government brings in for the rest of the country, the CL clubs will (rightly) argue that they have to compete on the same playing field as the likes of Real, Barca, PSG, Bayern etc and be able to sign who they want. Then the rest of the PL need to have the same rules applied to them otherwise it would be farcical.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Bit misleading with Barca just for a kickoff, those 9 include Pique, Busquets, Iniesta and Alba who are all late 20s/early 30s, and also Deulofeu and Denis Suarez who they sold before buying back. They haven't brought through many graduates at all lately.

Of the top nine goalscorers in the Bundesliga last season, only three were German (and none of the top three were German).

I wouldn't pretend there is no issue with youth development in England - Chelsea in particular are scandalously poor for it - but it's not that much of a driver. As I say Iceland and Poland are riding as high as they have in decades (well, ever in Iceland's case) - both their domestic leagues are appalling so it's irrelevant who plays for who there. All their best players play overseas.

As Johnny has said, we currently have two of Spurs' top players for us, they're in with a chance of winning a Champions League group containing Real Madrid and Dortmund. Do we make the best of them for the national team? Not even close. And that's because the manager isn't good enough.

I look forward to an Iceland or Poland world cup win next year then. Internationally we have not been above average this century. The quality of international football is generally poor.

 

[Alan]

Just a pointer. Barcelona have 9 Spanish players in their 22
Bayern Munich 13 Germans in 26
Man city 6 UK in 30

I think that says more about the quality of scouts and academies available to Bayern and Barca.

In terms of local prestige there are more horses to compete with in England than Germany or Spain.

I don't know anything about the general opinion of Michael Calvin but he wrote a book about youth development in England and there are some good bits in there...

“We’d spent weeks and weeks and weeks with the club philosophy of playing out from the back. This lad receives the ball from the goalkeeper about five minutes into the game, chops inside, and looks to play a diagonal pass into centre-midfield. We’re playing a Dutch team, who close down, press. They work hard and they’re psychologically powerful, physically strong.

“They can read the game. They’ve shown him inside, shut the line off because they’re very clever off the ball. Our lad is doing what he been told to do. He’s played the ball inside, but they’ve doubled up on it knowing where the pass is going. They’ve robbed it, got a counter-attack, and nearly score. The lad is berated from the sideline. Not that the kid hasn’t heard swearing before at school, but pitchside, from the dugout, really?

“Then, out of temper, a coach screams ‘Get off the pitch. Get off the pitch! Get off my pitch!’ I feel emotional now because the face of that child is right in the forefront of my mind. He has been demolished. There was no acknowledgement, no handshake. You could see that he wanted to cry and he didn’t want to show it.

“He made a mistake, but he did what we taught him, so actually we’re at fault, not the kid. He walked off down to the corner flag and I couldn’t leave him. He couldn’t speak to me. He had tears rolling down his face, and I just thought, ‘what the fuck have we become?’ To be treating so called elite talent, a maturing young man, in that way …”

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I look forward to an Iceland or Poland world cup win next year then.

Eh? I don't understand what point you're making here.

If it's that for the national team to be competitive, the domestic league needs to be heavily stocked with domestic players, then that's massively wide of the mark.

Just to pick a couple of random examples from the last round of Bundesliga fixtures (remember, Germany are the current World Cup holders):

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/2017/11/04/germany/bundesliga/sc-freiburg/fc-schalke-04/2480356/

Six foreigners for Schalke here.

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/201...liga/fc-augsburg/bayer-04-leverkusen/2480359/

Seven foreigners for Augsburg.

Possibly the biggest game of the season, Dortmund vs Bayern, how many Germans starting:

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/201...russia-09-dortmund/fc-bayern-munchen/2480353/

7 out of 22.

The point about Iceland and Poland is that the (relative) success of their national teams is in no way linked to how many domestic players break through in their own system. It doesn't matter because they all leave anyway.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I think that says more about the quality of scouts and academies available to Bayern and Barca.

In terms of local prestige there are more horses to compete with in England than Germany or Spain.

I don't know anything about the general opinion of Michael Calvin but he wrote a book about youth development in England and there are some good bits in there...

Football in the UK is all about money and it attracts the world's best players, generally. The PSG barca real exceptions also have the money to pay the most. However just because we can afford to play it doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My view is that the standard of UK international teams suffers.

 

[Alan]

Football in the UK is all about money and it attracts the world's best players, generally. The PSG barca real exceptions also have the money to pay the most. However just because we can afford to play it doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My view is that the standard of UK international teams suffers.

...what?

The problem isn't that they can spend money to buy whoever. The problem is that they need to in the first place, because the academies in England (and all of Britain, I suppose) don't supply that level of quality with any regularity.

Maybe it's because the talent in England is being snuffed out by misguided coaches before it can ever develop.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Eh? I don't understand what point you're making here.

If it's that for the national team to be competitive, the domestic league needs to be heavily stocked with domestic players, then that's massively wide of the mark.

Just to pick a couple of random examples from the last round of Bundesliga fixtures (remember, Germany are the current World Cup holders):

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/2017/11/04/germany/bundesliga/sc-freiburg/fc-schalke-04/2480356/

Six foreigners for Schalke here.

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/201...liga/fc-augsburg/bayer-04-leverkusen/2480359/

Seven foreigners for Augsburg.

Possibly the biggest game of the season, Dortmund vs Bayern, how many Germans starting:

http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/201...russia-09-dortmund/fc-bayern-munchen/2480353/

7 out of 22.

The point about Iceland and Poland is that the (relative) success of their national teams is in no way linked to how many domestic players break through in their own system. It doesn't matter because they all leave anyway.

Let us just see how well China does at the world cup. They have been chucking money at football like its going out of fashion. I can't name a single Chinese player. I can name plenty of foreign players who earn millions in China though

 

[Deleted Cyber]

...what?

The problem isn't that they can spend money to buy whoever. The problem is that they need to in the first place, because the academies in England (and all of Britain, I suppose) don't supply that level of quality with any regularity.

Maybe it's because the talent in England is being snuffed out by misguided coaches before it can ever develop.

As we are the current u20 and u17 world champions that's not the case

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

How are Germany so successful though when evidently their clubs also just buy whoever they want and you only get in the team if you're good enough, German or otherwise?

Italy were still World Cup holders at the time that Inter won the Champions League in 2010 (having won Serie A four times in a row). Would you like to take a wild guess how many Italians started for them in that final? Hint: It's a nice round number.

 

[Alan]

As we are the current u20 and u17 world champions that's not the case

It could very well prove my point.

Let's see how many of those players, who are obviously all very talented to win championships like that, survive into the senior ranks.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

How are Germany so successful though when evidently their clubs also just buy whoever they want and you only get in the team if you're good enough, German or otherwise?

Italy were still World Cup holders at the time that Inter won the Champions League in 2010 (having won Serie A four times in a row). Would you like to take a wild guess how many Italians started for them in that final? Hint: It's a nice round number.

To develop this, I've taken the trouble to look up how many native starters each CL winner has had in the last decade.

2017: Real Madrid - Carvajal, Ramos, Isco (3)
2016: Real Madrid - Carvajal, Ramos (2)
2015: Barcelona - Pique, Alba, Busquets, Iniesta (4)
2014: Real Madrid - Casillas, Carvajal, Ramos (3)
2013: Bayern München - Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Müller (5)
2012: Chelsea - Cahill, Cole, Lampard, Bertrand (4)
2011: Barcelona - Valdes, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Pedro (7)
2010: Internazionale - None (0)
2009: Barcelona - Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta (6)
2008: Man Utd - Brown, Ferdinand, Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick, Rooney (6)

Top teams are invariably foreign dominated (unless you get a freakish Academy generation like Barca and Man Utd did at different stages), they buy who they want. There's no way they will ever revert to just playing domestic players and maybe one or two foreigners. No chance.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

How are Germany so successful though when evidently their clubs also just buy whoever they want and you only get in the team if you're good enough, German or otherwise?

Italy were still World Cup holders at the time that Inter won the Champions League in 2010 (having won Serie A four times in a row). Would you like to take a wild guess how many Italians started for them in that final? Hint: It's a nice round number.

Like the 2010/11 champions ac Milan with 19 Italians in their 35 man squad. Or the Napoli squad of 20 Italians out of 29 same year. Personally could not care less about cl winners. Not once had I mentioned them. I said that not having a strong UK presence in our top 6 sides is not good for the UK national teams or words to that effect.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Like the 2010/11 champions ac Milan with 19 Italians in their 35 man squad. Or the Napoli squad of 20 Italians out of 29 same year.

You can play with squad numbers all you like. Arsenal currently have Wilshere, Walcott, Holding, Chambers, Maitland-Niles, Akpom and Macey in their first team squad (as well as a whole host of English youth teamers, most of whom even I've never heard of), we all know they don't actually play.

See above for a breakdown - elite teams do not stay native. Not when we're talking about ACTUAL first team players, not bit part players lucky to get 5 starts a season. Doesn't happen, barring a weird rush of players all coming through at the same time. That applies to German and Spanish clubs even when their national teams have been winning tournaments.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Personally could not care less about cl winners. Not once had I mentioned them. I said that not having a strong UK presence in our top 6 sides is not good for the UK national teams or words to that effect.

But I've literally just demonstrated to you that the very best Spanish, Italian and German teams tend not to have strong native presences in their first XI. Indeed the two English clubs in that list stack up fairly well.

I've also shown that even a middling German team such as Augsburg routinely plays way more foreigners than native players. Not a new thing either, as long ago as 15 years ago crappy Energie Cottbus were packed with Eastern European jobbers as they slogged their way to 14th place every year. Sam Allardyce likes to bang on now to the likes of Richard fucking Keys (in Doha) about how the Premier League is a "foreign league", didn't seem to bother him in 2004 when he sent this team out in a League Cup final:

Jaaskelainen; Hunt, N'Gotty, Thome, Charlton; Frandsen, Campo, Okocha, Nolan, Djorkaeff; Davies.

Aye, how very patriotic of you Sam.

This is not necessarily an English issue and it definitely isn't going away because of Brexit, which is how this whole discussion started That's total fantasy, just will not happen.

I reiterate - we don't have the players to win a World Cup anyway at the moment, unless we got some seriously insane luck which does occasionally happen in tournaments. However we have zero chance with such a terrible manager, ironically chosen mainly because he is English.

 

[Trips]

I've always felt that one of the biggest issues our national side has had for years is that nowhere near enough of our players play abroad. Most other nations, their players will play in a variety of different leagues around the world. They experience different cultures, different ways of life and different styles of play and tactics.

Euro 2016 - all 23 played in England
WC 2014 - 22 of 23 played in England (Forster at Celtic)
Euro 2012 - all 23 played in England
WC 2010 - all 23 played in England
WC 2006 - 21 of 23 played in England (Beckham at Madrid and Hargreaves at Bayern)
Euro 2004 - 21 of 23 played in England (Beckham at Madrid and Hargreaves at Bayern)
WC 2002 - 22 of 23 played in England (Hargreaves was at Bayern)
Euro 2000 - 21 of 22 played in England (McManaman at Madrid)
WC 1998 - all 22 played in England
Euro 96 - 20 of 22 played in England (Ince at Inter and Gazza at Rangers)
Euro 92 - 18 of 20 played in England (Platt at Bari and Steven at Marseille)
WC 1990 - 17 of 22 played in England

Our best record at finals in this time has been semi finals in 1990 and 1996. In 1990 we had Waddle at Marseille plus Lineker had previously been at Barcelona and Beardsley had played in Canada. In 1996 Gazza had been in Italy, Ince was in Italy, Platt had played in Italy.

Since our last quarter-final appearance at a major finals in 2006, none of the squads we have selected in the 4 tournaments since have had a single player who was based abroad (Forster being at Celtic I am not counting) and only Eric Dier in 2016 had experienced playing in a different league.

I am not saying this is the sole reason, however I believe it is something that will continue to hold us back. Seeing a young player like Jadon Sancho go abroad and play for Dortmund gives me hope that a few more players will go this route.

 

[Alan]

Without wanting to call the kettle black (as the US certainly has its own issues with this), there is certainly such a thing as English arrogance in soccer, as the response to that very word will tell you.

Just look at the initial reaction to our influx of Portuguese nationals at Wolves. There is certainly a feeling of "well, will such and such foreigner be up to the English game?" That kind of thing. We've discussed on the forum before. I think the same mindset holds back the British national teams + Eire because it holds back tactical thinking.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I've always felt that one of the biggest issues our national side has had for years is that nowhere near enough of our players play abroad. Most other nations, their players will play in a variety of different leagues around the world. They experience different cultures, different ways of life and different styles of play and tactics.

Euro 2016 - all 23 played in England
WC 2014 - 22 of 23 played in England (Forster at Celtic)
Euro 2012 - all 23 played in England
WC 2010 - all 23 played in England
WC 2006 - 21 of 23 played in England (Beckham at Madrid and Hargreaves at Bayern)
Euro 2004 - 21 of 23 played in England (Beckham at Madrid and Hargreaves at Bayern)
WC 2002 - 22 of 23 played in England (Hargreaves was at Bayern)
Euro 2000 - 21 of 22 played in England (McManaman at Madrid)
WC 1998 - all 22 played in England
Euro 96 - 20 of 22 played in England (Ince at Inter and Gazza at Rangers)
Euro 92 - 18 of 20 played in England (Platt at Bari and Steven at Marseille)
WC 1990 - 17 of 22 played in England

Our best record at finals in this time has been semi finals in 1990 and 1996. In 1990 we had Waddle at Marseille plus Lineker had previously been at Barcelona and Beardsley had played in Canada. In 1996 Gazza had been in Italy, Ince was in Italy, Platt had played in Italy.

Since our last quarter-final appearance at a major finals in 2006, none of the squads we have selected in the 4 tournaments since have had a single player who was based abroad (Forster being at Celtic I am not counting) and only Eric Dier in 2016 had experienced playing in a different league.

I am not saying this is the sole reason, however I believe it is something that will continue to hold us back. Seeing a young player like Jadon Sancho go abroad and play for Dortmund gives me hope that a few more players will go this route.

Yes, I agree.

Unfortunately because we throw money at players far too easily and far too early, it's easy enough to coast along on £20-30k a week (which is an insane amount of money realistically, imagine if you or I earned close to or over £1m gross a year) and not push yourself.

 

[Trips]

Yes, I agree.

Unfortunately because we throw money at players far too easily and far too early, it's easy enough to coast along on £20-30k a week (which is an insane amount of money realistically, imagine if you or I earned close to or over £1m gross a year) and not push yourself.

Absolutely. Clubs throw so much cash at young players before they are near the first team it's untrue. Take Solanke for example (and I'll prefix this by saying I was impressed with him this evening) he hasn't started a single Premier League game, when he joined Liverpool he hadn't had a single minute of league football but moved on a reported £20k a week. I know he went to Vitesse on loan, but when he's getting £20k a week sitting on the bench, having never started a league game, where is the incentive for him to go and try playing abroad for a couple of seasons. He won't earn that money on the continent, so he'll sit here watching other players and getting odd minutes here and there.

 

[YoungWolf]

Cyber might have a point - we don't produce enough quality. When was the last time a former England player scored against England?

I rest my case.

:icon_lol:

On a serious note, the academy system produces enough talent. England are getting it right with the u15-21 system now, to showcase this talent. The problem we have in the next ten years if we want to win anything (in addition to having the right manager) is giving these players opportunities.

The forward line at the end of the game Solanke and Abraham are both Chelsea academy products but neither were going to get games there, so have moved on to get games, but both are more than good enough to be strong national team players going forwards.

We really do need to get the manager right though, Southgate might be prepared to pick these young players but there is little chance of it coming together if he doesn't show tactical ability. If we fail to get out of the group in Russia, will he get sacked? I have a feeling they would stick by him, even though he was not their first choice after Hodgson went.

 

[Tredman]

I get Cyber's point that the opportunities for our young players are stunted (particularly at the big 6, Chelsea in particular - if it were up to me I would have cat A status based partly on how players graduate too). What should happen is that they get good opportunities at mid level Prem clubs, but this doesn't seem to happen that much as they are so terrified of failing.

Wolves may be a case in point, the only disappointment for me this season is that we haven't seen much of Ronan and I doubt we will see much of MGW either.