The Red Card Effect

[Kenny]

A whole lot of excuses and no desire to change things.

Let the players carry on playing within the rules of football. Clubs won't do anything until they know they face the real threat of losing players for their actions.

If the FA can pull up people for stamping, punching, spitting then cheating is easy to add on to it

"Attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)", must be sanctioned as unsporting behaviour"

 

[FrankMunro-371]

So shouldn't the Ref Association put pressure on the FA to bring in a rule where players who are clearly caught on camera cheating are punished, just like those caught punching/spitting/elbowing etc.

It is quite clear that Players will continue to cheat when they know if the ref falls for it or misses it they go unpunished. Never going to expect the ref to pick up on every cheating moment, it would be impossible but there has to be something in place where those doing it are punished. In reality, Watford should be without their player for 3 games after his actions this week.

I am not evading your question, but until FIFA bring in the required changes, then no individual association has the power to take retrospective action against a player if the referee has seen and acted on the incident. A good example is when Wes Brown was sent off the other week, when in fact John O'Shea should have been sent off. Brown won his appeal, but because the referee had seen and acted on the incident, the FA could not transfer the red card to O'Shea. Wrong? Yes, but until FIFA changes this rule then the FA are powerless.

 

[Kenny]

So the answer is to sit around and hope players suddenly think "You know what, I won't cheat again its naughty"

If the Refs Association put pressure on the FA, they will in turn put pressure on FIFA. It gets enough publicity and no one, not even Seppy, will announce they will let player carry on cheating. Unfortunately the Ref's are going to have to be the ones to start the process as clubs won't.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

A whole lot of excuses and no desire to change things.

Let the players carry on playing within the rules of football. Clubs won't do anything until they know they face the real threat of losing players for their actions.

If the FA can pull up people for stamping, punching, spitting then cheating is easy to add on to it

"Attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)", must be sanctioned as unsporting behaviour"

Kenny, I am honestly not trying to make excuses. I fully understand the frustration over what happened at Molineux. Now let us presume that the referee did think Sako pushed the Watford lad, then he was correct to send off Sako, but he should also have sent off the Watford player for his actions. Now that would have caused a furore.

And yes, the referee association advocated back in 2008 that any player player feigning injury in order to get another player sent off, should himself be sent off. It went to the FA, who presented it to FIFA at their annual conference, and it was rejected.

 

[Kenny]

Are there any records available to see how many Red Cards have been rescinded each season?

There seems to have been a hell of a lot this season and certainly more than I can remember happening in a season.

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, I am honestly not trying to make excuses. I fully understand the frustration over what happened at Molineux. Now let us presume that the referee did think Sako pushed the Watford lad, then he was correct to send off Sako, but he should also have sent off the Watford player for his actions. Now that would have caused a furore.

And yes, the referee association advocated back in 2008 that any player player feigning injury in order to get another player sent off, should himself be sent off. It went to the FA, who presented it to FIFA at their annual conference, and it was rejected.

Wasn't refering to you Mr David on the excuses.

I would say the cheating is hell of a lot worse now, 7 years on. So there is the case for the rule right there.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Sorry Kenny, my mistake.

I know a lot of the good folk on here think I always defend the referee, but I merely try to put forward the reasons why certain decisions are/are not given. I do often think the referees get unfair criticism, but decisions like that at Molineux on Saturday do referees no favours whatsoever.

Also the referee association still advocate that the referee should have the power to send players off for certain aspects of cheating. But until the lawmakers give us the green light then our hands are tied.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry Kenny, my mistake.

I know a lot of the good folk on here think I always defend the referee, but I merely try to put forward the reasons why certain decisions are/are not given. I do often think the referees get unfair criticism, but decisions like that at Molineux on Saturday do referees no favours whatsoever.

Also the referee association still advocate that the referee should have the power to send players off for certain aspects of cheating. But until the lawmakers give us the green light then our hands are tied.

It would be a dull place if we just all sat around typing "refs are crap" and everyone agreed.

This season has been one of the worse for refs at Molineux. Not just talking about red cards (of which we have had 2 rescinded) but the general level of performance.. Mike Jones made the headlines for his 2 red cards but his performance v Bournemouth was dreadful He let the opposition players ref the game and control him. Hadn't seen that level of control since Nolan and his Newcastle buddies visited us.

 

[Wolf Hunting]

The game today is very quick, and these incidents can happen in a flash, and the referee cannot stop the game to have a look at a video replay, he must make his decision there and then. You say there is zero effort going into stopping diving, but there is, but it is so difficult, and until the clubs come on board to stop this blatant cheating, then it is difficult to see things changing in the short term.

Right there Frank.
That needs reversing.
It would only take a few moments to review it and it would take a lot of pressure off the ref and put it on the diving, cheating players.

Interesting Frank how there are so many brilliant parallells to the Rugby game and refs yet the FA carry on blindly dragging themselves backwards.
They need to wake up and look around to see how it can be improved.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Are there any records available to see how many Red Cards have been rescinded each season?

There seems to have been a hell of a lot this season and certainly more than I can remember happening in a season.

Yes there are. I am meant to be working this morning..., but when I get a chance I will try to find some details.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Right there Frank.
That needs reversing.
It would only take a few moments to review it and it would take a lot of pressure off the ref and put it on the diving, cheating players.

Interesting Frank how there are so many brilliant parallells to the Rugby game and refs yet the FA carry on blindly dragging themselves backwards.
They need to wake up and look around to see how it can be improved.

Football could learn a lot from rugby, particularly in regard to player behaviour. But again I must emphasise that the FA can only act within the rules of FIFA.

 

[Johnny75]

Football could learn a lot from rugby, particularly in regard to player behaviour. But again I must emphasise that the FA can only act within the rules of FIFA.

But the FA does have the power to trial certain rules at certain levels doesn't it? So in theory it could 'trial' a rule for a season at Premier league level, maybe even for just cup competitions to see what effect it has. Even FIFA allow that and the results would be interesting.

It is weak leadership to think this could not go through as I know (and I'm sure you do to) that any advantage to the referees will be welcomed. This fear of the clubs needs nipping in the bud and the only way to do that is stand up to them.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Any rule changes, temporary or permanent, that involve the powers of the referee must be sanctioned by FIFA. And they are very hesitant to allow individual associations to have their own interpretations of the laws of the game.

 

[Johnny75]

Any rule changes, temporary or permanent, that involve the powers of the referee must be sanctioned by FIFA. And they are very hesitant to allow individual associations to have their own interpretations of the laws of the game.

Really? I know of two technologies that have been tested that meant temporary changing of the rules that have been trialled without FIFA ratification because they were at a local level.

 

[lemonjelly]

The captains are the only ones who should be approaching officials to question decisions. Referees are told to use the captains to help keep players in order, and likewise the captains are allowed to ask a referee why he has given a decision. Referees have been instructed to take action against players surrounding them, but not enough do.

So what is being done about referees failing to do what they are supposed to do?

The referee association still maintains that the biggest problem is players cheating, in whichever form this takes place, whether it be a dive in the penalty area, or a defender kicking a ball away from goal when he knows full well it has crossed the line. Cut out the cheating, and it will make officials jobs much easier. And the game would improve as a result.

The FA or refs saying "it's not our fault guv" isn't going to resolve the problem though. & there are already rules in place for the scenarios you highlight - diving is a bookable offence, as is kicking the ball away, and what happened to ungentlemanly conduct or unsportsmanlike behaviour?

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Really? I know of two technologies that have been tested that meant temporary changing of the rules that have been trialled without FIFA ratification because they were at a local level.

Which were those Johnny?

 

[FrankMunro-371]

LJ, if the referee is being assessed, then it should be brought to his attention he should be taking action against players surrounding him. He should also mark the referee accordingly.

Kicking the ball away should be a mandatory yellow card, but it seems to be one of those things that tends to be overlooked now.

Anyway Gents if I do not get on with the jobs I told the good lady I would do, then I will be getting a red card...!

 

[Johnny75]

Which were those Johnny?

A company I owned trialled a linesman device which meant the linesman would use an earpiece which at the time was not in the rules (2003) and a data collection company I know of trialled a goal line system (again 2003). Both were trialled at non-league level for a period of 10 games. I also trialled the linesman system at pre-season with several league clubs (I know the rules do not extend to friendly games as such).

Both were allowed by the FA and the rules I am suggesting may well affect players on a greater scale. Having had a good set of meetings with Mr Hackett I found that the RA had many a frustration with the FA and the FA in turn with FIFA but was impressed with the lobbying at higher levels. He talked about the spray we use now being in Brazil (this was 2003) and look how long that took to be ratified in full competition. So I understand the frustration but it can be done with proper leadership from the FA.

(Neither tech went anywhere)

 

[fizzwolf]

It is completely laughable. It's there for everyone to see and it goes on regardless. Players then come out in support of their team mates even when they see what we all see after the game.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

A company I owned trialled a linesman device which meant the linesman would use an earpiece which at the time was not in the rules (2003) and a data collection company I know of trialled a goal line system (again 2003). Both were trialled at non-league level for a period of 10 games. I also trialled the linesman system at pre-season with several league clubs (I know the rules do not extend to friendly games as such).

Both were allowed by the FA and the rules I am suggesting may well affect players on a greater scale. Having had a good set of meetings with Mr Hackett I found that the RA had many a frustration with the FA and the FA in turn with FIFA but was impressed with the lobbying at higher levels. He talked about the spray we use now being in Brazil (this was 2003) and look how long that took to be ratified in full competition. So I understand the frustration but it can be done with proper leadership from the FA.

(Neither tech went anywhere)

Thank you for that. I do remember some idea about ear pieces being trialled, but I must admit I was not aware of any goal line technology back then.

These though are technology rather than allowing different associations to actually give referees different powers.

P.S. How did you find Mr Hackett?