The Incoming Transfers Everywhere Thread: Summer 2023

[Carsy]

But the players we want out can’t improve because they aren’t or are no longer good enough.

You Can accentuate their positives and mask their weaknesses (Coady/Doherty). But Coady will still be weak, slow and poor in 1 v 1 situations, and Doherty will still be extremely limited technically and defensively.

We’re not going to grow Jonny a new knee, stop Podence having the presence of a 12 year old, Collins the coordination and agression of a new born giraffe, need I go on?

I don’t agree that players ‘can’t’ improve. That’s rubbish IMO as anyone can improve and I’d back Lop to improve them.

I agree that some aren’t good enough and I’m in the camp of refreshing the squad.

The point (I think) was abit vague by EP, and I’m sure he will correct me if I’m wrong but with a better manager/coach then most players should improve. That is evidenced by the fact of where we finished compared to when Lop took over.

I also agree that some of the aforementioned players are not good enough and will never be. I don’t think EPs saying that they will be though?

 

[Johnny75]

We have an entirely new coaching staff too, maybe we have should have a bit of faith in them to improve our current players.

This is ridiculous.

You're assuming these players aren't already at their peak or over achieving as it is. And you're ignoring what the players are having seen them for a good period of time. It is unlikely that Lop is going to move any of these players like Nuno did with Coady and Doc.

As others have said you're not improving any of the players we're looking to move on bar Neves and RAN.

Costa and Moutinho could and probably should retire, Jonny and Raul are broken, Sa isn't in favour and nobody has ever got Adama to use the tools he has because nobody can despite some of the best in the world trying.

Podence is a squad player as is Hwang and that's what they should be (Podence doesn't strike me as a Lop player so I expect him to go).

Most of DW's original list are unlikely to ever make it here either.

Lastly, from a coaches point of view, you have to acknowledge some players cannot do what you're asking. Lop has clearly reached that point with some of this squad.

 

[Carsy]

This is ridiculous.

You're assuming these players aren't already at their peak or over achieving as it is. And you're ignoring what the players are having seen them for a good period of time. It is unlikely that Lop is going to move any of these players like Nuno did with Coady and Doc.

As others have said you're not improving any of the players we're looking to move on bar Neves and RAN.

Costa and Moutinho could and probably should retire, Jonny and Raul are broken, Sa isn't in favour and nobody has ever got Adama to use the tools he has because nobody can despite some of the best in the world trying.

Podence is a squad player as is Hwang and that's what they should be (Podence doesn't strike me as a Lop player so I expect him to go).

Most of DW's original list are unlikely to ever make it here either.

Lastly, from a coaches point of view, you have to acknowledge some players cannot do what you're asking. Lop has clearly reached that point with some of this squad.

A fair analysis.

FWIW I’d still keep Adama if we would accept reduced terms. But that’s been discussed enough I feel.

 

[Tony Towner]

A fair analysis.

FWIW I’d still keep Adama if we would accept reduced terms. But that’s been discussed enough I feel.

What do you see as reasonable? His view of his own worth is now at 100kpw. We offered him that 2 years ago, he declined

 

[Johnny75]

I want to know why people would keep him?

His output is disgraceful.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I don’t agree that players ‘can’t’ improve. That’s rubbish IMO as anyone can improve and I’d back Lop to improve them.

Go on then. Suggest to me how your making Podence better? You can’t alter his physical deficiencies and players who are so lacking in one area need to excel in another - he doesn’t (can’t), he doesn’t have it.

And on your “where we’ve finished is better” argument proves he’s made the players better. He hasn’t really. He’s just s better manager than Bruno Lage. The metics don’t really say we are any better either we are just getting results. Better set up, players don’t hate the manager (well some do but they don’t play), signed better players, some form of tactics and organisation. The players are just as shit as they were though, who is demonstrably better?

 

[prawnking]

I want to know why people would keep him?

His output is disgraceful.

Not just that, when he plays he becomes a lazy (and largely ineffectual) go-to option for all his team-mates; they can't seem to help themselves, even though they know the outcome 99% of the time.

We need to move on from him

 

[Carsy]

What do you see as reasonable? He's view of his own worth is now at 100kpw. We offered him that 2 years ago, he declined

I’d have to know the wage of squad players etc, and Ofcourse the situation of the club. I would say 30k? I absolutely don’t think he will stay Ofcourse just making the point I’d be fine with him as a squad player

 

[Carsy]

I want to know why people would keep him?

His output is disgraceful.

It may well be I just find him exciting and frustrating in equal measure. I’ve personally always swayed towards watching physically gifted players.

I just think he is a useful squad option and there are players I would get rid of before him.

That being said, I’m not going to be heartbroken if he goes, and I fully expect him to.

 

[Carsy]

Go on then. Suggest to me how your making Podence better? You can’t alter his physical deficiencies and players who are so lacking in one area need to excel in another - he doesn’t (can’t), he doesn’t have it.

And on your “where we’ve finished is better” argument proves he’s made the players better. He hasn’t really. He’s just s better manager than Bruno Lage. The metics don’t really say we are any better either we are just getting results. Better set up, players don’t hate the manager (well some do but they don’t play), signed better players, some form of tactics and organisation. The players are just as shit as they were though, who is demonstrably better?

A manager sets up a team with the players he’s got. I dont really get how you can’t see a difference in performance and output since Lops arrived? Tactics and organisation also effect how good a plays?

Surely a key metric in performance is results? Or are you saying we are going to fall off a cliff next year ala Lage as we’ve been scrapping results like he did last year?

Regarding Podence, if we are zeroing in on him as the example (although I’d happily see him go) you can Ofcourse make him a better player, or at football that suits him. All falls under the same basket really. Patterns of play, positional awareness, what to do and what not to etc.

There are plenty of examples of players being no where near a team or being seen as good enough, and then a new manager takes the reigns and they play a big part. Again, I’m not saying Adama, Collins, Podence, hwang etc fall into that category, but to say an elite manager won’t improve players is ridiculous.

 

[Alan]

How are we defining “elite” here?

 

[Keef]

Players can’t improve, but a top coach can improve them.
I’ll give you two words.

Adama Traore.

He’s been at Barcelona twice, played for the Spanish national team ( who I assume have a good coach) worked under Nuno and Lopetegui, when’s the improvement happening?

 

[Carsy]

How are we defining “elite” here?

Just using the terminology used to describe him by previous posters. However, you don’t have to be pep to improve players or ‘elite’ necessarily. Someone very good would also do that. However you want to gauge it

 

[Johnny75]

Just using the terminology used to describe him by previous posters. However, you don’t have to be pep to improve players or ‘elite’ necessarily. Someone very good would also do that. However you want to gauge it

But they haven't, nobody has.

 

[Carsy]

Players can’t improve, but a top coach can improve them.
I’ll give you two words.

Adama Traore.

He’s been at Barcelona twice, played for the Spanish national team ( who I assume have a good coach) worked under Nuno and Lopetegui, when’s the improvement happening?

So are we saying coaches don’t or can’t improve players now?

 

[Johnny75]

So are we saying coaches don’t or can’t improve players now?

Nobody has said that. But a coach can only do so much.

 

[Carsy]

But they haven't, nobody has.

It’s been said several times on the forum

 

[Carsy]

Nobody has said that. But a coach can only do so much.

That I agree with.

It has been implied since lop has taken over players haven’t improved. That’s totally incorrect

 

[Johnny75]

It’s been said several times on the forum

That Adama could be improved?

I can't see any improvement in him since he was with Tony Pulis.

 

[Johnny75]

That I agree with.

It has been implied since lop has taken over players haven’t improved. That’s totally incorrect

Semedo and Hwang are the two I can think that have improved. Sa has regressed, others have been replaced in the main.

Lop put a structure in place that just wasn't there before and putting players in their actual positions and getting them to do the basics has helped enormously. Don't think many have improved though.