REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[visage]

The death of poor brown people is important as its a chance to criticize the actions of rich brown people.

 

[ProgWolf]

The death of poor brown people is important as its a chance to criticize the actions of rich brown people.

Is that how you interpret my post or is that just one of your general observations ?

 

[Papper]

Three million extra taxpayers who pay for the needs of three million extra residents. This has been pointed out to you before.

Work 40 hours on minimum wages and you pay £800 per year tax.
Work 30 hours and you pay £40 tax per year.
Taxpayer funds 33,000 families the maximum benefit which is £23-26K
Hundreds of thousands healthy people cannot be forced into work and need taxpayer support.

Now work out the demand on public services. It costs at least £3-4K each year a child spends at school then you've got the others costs that increase as the population increases. Encouraging economic migrants to do low paid work because some don't want to work at least doubles the demand on public services. It increases what gets taken in proportion to what gets given.

 

[visage]

Work 40 hours on minimum wages and you pay £800 per year tax.
Work 30 hours and you pay £40 tax per year.
Taxpayer funds 33,000 families the maximum benefit which is £23-26K
Hundreds of thousands healthy people cannot be forced into work and need taxpayer support.

Now work out the demand on public services. It costs at least £3-4K each year a child spends at school then you've got the others costs that increase as the population increases. Encouraging economic migrants to do low paid work because some don't want to work at least doubles the demand on public services. It increases what gets taken in proportion to what gets given.

Yes. Thats how a progressive tax system works.

From each according to his means to each according to his needs.

 

[Johnny75]

Hundreds of thousands healthy people cannot be forced into work and need taxpayer support..

I'll ask for the umpteenth time;

Do you want to force people into work

No bollocks this time it's a YES or NO.

 

[Papper]

No, I'm sure that Tim Farron would say it was wonderful if he went to live in Sparkbrook for a short time, just to prove a point, but he would never move there permanently. I would just have far more respect for him if he did. As Penk Wolf says, it's probably a class thing too which is why I keep harping on about the white middle classes. How many MP's can you name, who are happy with Freedom of Movement, that live in in an area with a high immigrant population ?

I'm not sure the problems in places like Sparkbrook are defined by multiculturalism more likely poverty and poor public services. The area is probably as diverse as Mayfair or Kensington. The poorer you are the more likely you will group and distrust others.

 

[ProgWolf]

The death of poor brown people is important as its a chance to criticize the actions of rich brown people.

I will ask you again, was that how you interpreted my post or just another one of your general observations ?

 

[Papper]

I'll ask for the umpteenth time;

Do you want to force people into work

No bollocks this time it's a YES or NO.

And for the umpteenth time Vis's poodle I couldn't care less whether they work or not. I really do not give a damn what they do - but I do not want to fund their decision not to work and that's how a lot of people feel. That's why their benefits get cut and long may it continue. Seriously, Johnny if you stood on a soapbox in a 'working class' area and spouted the crap you do here you would get shouted down very quickly (and that's me being polite).

 

[visage]

I will ask you again, was that how you interpreted my post or just another one of your general observations ?

An observation. I wouldnt claim to know what you think, especially given your reticence when people question you as to your opinions.

 

[Papper]

Yes. Thats how a progressive tax system works.

From each according to his means to each according to his needs.

And those who work hard and claim no benefits to barely keep their head above water no longer want to fund the idle or pay more taxes that they can ill afford to fund deteriorating public services that struggle to meet demand in an economy that is shifting to low paid work.

 

[visage]

So you aspire to a society where those at the bottom are cut adrift, because, well, fuck 'em?

 

[Johnny75]

And for the umpteenth time Vis's poodle I couldn't care less whether they work or not. I really do not give a damn what they do - but I do not want to fund their decision not to work and that's how a lot of people feel. That's why their benefits get cut and long may it continue. Seriously, Johnny if you stood on a soapbox in a 'working class' area and spouted the crap you do here you would get shouted down very quickly (and that's me being polite).

This is just 'elephants' again isn't it?

You are quick to spout off but have no answers and when pressed evade any question by talking about something you weren't asked. I'll ask again Do you want to force people into work?

It was a simple question that should have been answered YES or NO.

 

[Johnny75]

And those who work hard and claim no benefits to barely keep their head above water no longer want to fund the idle or pay more taxes that they can ill afford to fund deteriorating public services that struggle to meet demand in an economy that is shifting to low paid work.

Do you have evidence it is shifting towards low paid work?

 

[Papper]

Do you have evidence it is shifting towards low paid work?

https://www.ft.com/content/6a8544ae-9d9e-11e4-8ea3-00144feabdc0

 

[Papper]

This is just 'elephants' again isn't it?

You are quick to spout off but have no answers and when pressed evade any question by talking about something you weren't asked. I'll ask again Do you want to force people into work?

It was a simple question that should have been answered YES or NO.

If cutting benefits forces people to find work then it's a big, fat YES.

 

[Papper]

So you aspire to a society where those at the bottom are cut adrift, because, well, $#@! 'em?

I can't stop people cutting themselves adrift by not wanting to work can I? If they decide to do that then yes fuck em ...

 

[ProgWolf]

An observation. I wouldn't claim to know what you think, especially given your reticence when people question you as to your opinions.

As you can see from my comments over the last two days, I don't have a problem giving my opinions.
I accept that people on here will disagree with them and I don't have a problem with that either, but I won't just lie back and accept insults, abuse or silly attempts at ridicule. I tend to reply back in the same way. Not exactly a mature approach but when things descend into playground mode I usually go with the flow.

That said, you will not find any examples on here of me kicking off the abuse, moreover, I am merely replying to it in a similar fashion, but I don't think name calling actually achieves anything ?

 

[Tony Towner]

This is probably off topic but in light of some of the recent posts on here I think it's relevant.

Maybe for some, the older you get the more problems you have with change, in many aspects of life.

For me, Football / Supporting Wolves, is one of many. Having watched John Richards and Kenny Hibbitt in the 70's and early 80's, the cost of watching then was never that high and neither were the wages that footballers were getting paid. Even up to watching Bully play, ok his wages were by then were considerably higher 'pro-rata' then in the 70's, but I still justified it because a lot of the time it was worth paying knowing Bully was in the team. Over the last few years I am now picking my games. This season I have seen 8 home games and 2 away games.

It's the personal conflict I have with having Wolves in the blood all of my life after my Father supported Wolves through the 50's, but he was still there with me, to watch every home game in Divisions Four and Three. The standard of football is so poor today but we have to pay so much to watch it and very average players earn an absolute fortune. Even if some argue that the standard of football in the 70's and 90's was also poor, perhaps it didn't bother me as much because it didn't cost so much to watch it. Or maybe I'm just getting older and see things differently now ?

On a far more serious note, watching the Panorama Documentary last year, on the Qatar World Cup (I didn't see it first time round) was the beginning of the end of my lifelong love affair with football. On top of the fact that average footballers earn ridiculously high amounts of money, we now have the World Cup in Qatar in 2022. I don't give a sh*t about what the temperature will be when it kicks off. I'm even passed caring about the $500M they are apparently spending every week on World Cup projects. It's too be expected now. No-one is naive enough to think that millions of dollars didn't change hands via FIFA in order for Qatar to get the world cup in the first place.

What angers me, saddens me and sickens me the most is the people who have died, so far, in building the stadiums in Qatar. Of course the Slave Trade is still very much alive and kicking in the 21st Century and once again it's migrants who are dying during the work and being exploited. Naturally the Qatari authorities would not wish to discuss this let alone divulge any figures in a death toll or talk about migrants living conditions. It's Evil and it's rotten to the core.

In 2014, The Guardian said that migrant workers in Qatar, were dying at the rate of one every two days in 2014.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/qatar-nepal-workers-world-cup-2022-death-toll-doha4


Other sources have that figure a lot higher, others are unable to substantiate an exact figure either way ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838


The BBC link says "Living and working conditions for migrants in Qatar are appalling. Long hours in the blazing heat, low pay and squalid dormitories, are a daily ordeal for thousands - and they cannot leave without an exit visa".

But, in 2022, when the mega rich players from England, Germany, Spain etc, walk out into those brand new stadiums, with their multi billion pound sponsors orchestrating the whole gravy train, will anyone remember any of the above ? Millionaires playing football in stadiums built by some of the poorest, most exploited people, many of whom lost their lives helping to build the stadiums and the rest having to live in squalor and unable to leave until all the work was complete.

Are we all guilty by association, in playing our own small part by funding the madness that is modern day football ?
Some will of course say we have a choice. We don't have to pay to watch and we can switch TV channels if we wish.
It's hard to just switch off from football totally when it's been in your blood for so long and handed down from your parents etc.

The situation in Qatar certainly does not rest easy with me, the online reports, the Panorama Documentary, it just made me feel physically sick. It has affected me so much that I cannot remember the last time I watched an England game on TV.
I'm watching less and less Wolves games as the years go by. Perhaps it's gradually being forced out of my system, because of the reasons given above ?

Sorry for the rant and the usual ramble and apologies if it's off topic, but it does mess with my head.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/03/qatar-world-cup-of-shame/

Strange thread to post this on.
Qatar is a disgrace, but we all know why they got the World Cup and therefore is no way that FIFA will back down.
I fundamentally agree with you about pricing, but football increases are consistent with entertainment in general these days. North of £50 to see someone popular at the NEC, beer in and around £3.50 a pint in the average pub, you'll be spending £25+ for a family of 4 to go to the cinema. By way of comparison the cheapest season ticket to watch Philadelphia Eagles will cost you around $800 for 8 games, football has followed the trend and betrayed it's traditional roots but while people pay it they'll continue to charge it.

 

[Johnny75]

If cutting benefits forces people to find work then it's a big, fat YES.

That isn't what I asked is it? Cutting somebody's benefits is likely to have all kinds of effects, finding work is unlikely to be related to that. I'm going to keep asking until you answer

Do you want to force people into work?

 

[So Long Architect]

Strange thread to post this on.
Qatar is a disgrace, but we all know why they got the World Cup and therefore is no way that FIFA will back down.
I fundamentally agree with you about pricing, but football increases are consistent with entertainment in general these days. North of £50 to see someone popular at the NEC, beer in and around £3.50 a pint in the average pub, you'll be spending £25+ for a family of 4 to go to the cinema. By way of comparison the cheapest season ticket to watch Philadelphia Eagles will cost you around $800 for 8 games, football has followed the trend and betrayed it's traditional roots but while people pay it they'll continue to charge it.

Indeed. We're taking my eldest daughter to see Les Mis for her birthday. Had to sell the youngest daughter to pay for it. Frighteningly expensive.But sold out for months so...