REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[visage]

I can't stop people cutting themselves adrift by not wanting to work can I? If they decide to do that then yes fuck em ...

There are 1.58m unemployed people in Britain, and 750,000 vacancies.

Even if there was a perfect match between where the jobs are versus where the unemployed are, and if there was a perfect match between the skills required and available, you'd still have over 750k people out of work.

Or, as you put it, 'cutting themselves adrift'.

 

[Johnny75]

I can't stop people cutting themselves adrift by not wanting to work can I? If they decide to do that then yes $#@! em ...

What if people are on zero hours contracts and aren't required that week, if they are in work but not working are you happy for them to receive full benefits?

 

[ProgWolf]

I can't stop people cutting themselves adrift by not wanting to work can I? If they decide to do that then yes fuck em ...

I wonder how often anyone from a Local Government Dept has sat down with some of the parents who 'choose' a life on the dole, or feel that they are unable to achieve anything else but that ? If they were confronted about their children and asked what they wanted for their children's future, would they really say that they didn't care if they emulated what they did and also spent their entire life on the dole with numerous kids of their own ? Surely the only way to break the circle is Education and ongoing discussion ?

There must be examples of people who have broken that cycle and turned their lives around. Are their stories being shared and discussed with other supposed 'lost causes' ? Perhaps some people don't want to be helped, but when challenged, surely most Mothers would want more for their children than to sit on their arses all day or drift into a life of drugs and crime ?

I have no qualifications on the subject, these are just my opinions. So why aren't the 'powers that be' getting off their arses and helping some of these people to break that cycle ? Or is it going on but not being reported ?

 

[Papper]

There are 1.58m unemployed people in Britain, and 750,000 vacancies.

Even if there was a perfect match between where the jobs are versus where the unemployed are, and if there was a perfect match between the skills required and available, you'd still have over 750k people out of work.

Or, as you put it, 'cutting themselves adrift'.

And there are how many million economic migrants since 97 who have found work. They are necessary because as you and others have stated ' the Brits cannot be forced to work '.

 

[Papper]

What if people are on zero hours contracts and aren't required that week, if they are in work but not working are you happy for them to receive full benefits?

Yes, fine by me. That's why we pay tax credits. Is it 16/30 hours? Thankfully, the minimum wage has further put the burden on the employer rather than the taxpayer.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

There are 1.58m unemployed people in Britain, and 750,000 vacancies.

Even if there was a perfect match between where the jobs are versus where the unemployed are, and if there was a perfect match between the skills required and available, you'd still have over 750k people out of work.

Or, as you put it, 'cutting themselves adrift'.

Woah there that's a leap of faith. There are 750,000 advertised vacancies. Looking at the figures about a third are long term unemployed. So that's 500000 according to pappers figures. That leaves 1 m for 750 k vacancies in reality as the 500k fit the definition of long term unemployed and for whatever reason can't or won't find a job. The wonts is the main issue

 

[Johnny75]

I wonder how often anyone from a Local Government Dept has sat down with some of the parents who 'choose' a life on the dole, or feel that they are unable to achieve anything else but that ? If they were confronted about their children and asked what they wanted for their children's future, would they really say that they didn't care if they emulated what they did and also spent their entire life on the dole with numerous kids of their own ? Surely the only way to break the circle is Education and ongoing discussion ?

There must be examples of people who have broken that cycle and turned their lives around. Are their stories being shared and discussed with other supposed 'lost causes' ? Perhaps some people don't want to be helped, but when challenged, surely most Mothers would want more for their children than to sit on their arses all day or drift into a life of drugs and crime ?

I have no qualifications on the subject, these are just my opinions. So why aren't the 'powers that be' getting off their arses and helping some of these people to break that cycle ? Or is it going on but not being reported ?

I'm not sure on your use of language but essentially I think you are correct, it is education and opportunity. But why should the government be responsible all the time, especially as they're not actually that good at it. There needs to be new thinking and maybe a new tax system that addresses this directly, not pfi but direct taxation into projects of some sorts.

Like you I don't have the answers and I'm not sure many think tanks are going to be looking on obscure football forums for them. But nevertheless worth a go.

 

[visage]

Well, yes, if you pull a load of caveats out your arse, you're right.

 

[Johnny75]

Woah there that's a leap of faith. There are 750,000 advertised vacancies. Looking at the figures about a third are long term unemployed. So that's 500000 according to pappers figures. That leaves 1 m for 750 k vacancies in reality as the 500k fit the definition of long term unemployed and for whatever reason can't or won't find a job. The wonts is the main issue

So what would you do with the 'wonts' as you put it. Would you do the same as Papper and force them into work? Live in workhouses? Take their children from them?

Rather than lambasting people for keeping them with 'your' taxes, what would you do?

 

[visage]

Thatcher's children are alive and well.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Well, yes, if you pull a load of caveats out your arse, you're right.

Thanks lol

 

[leedswolf]

I'm not sure on your use of language but essentially I think you are correct, it is education and opportunity. But why should the government be responsible all the time, especially as they're not actually that good at it. There needs to be new thinking and maybe a new tax system that addresses this directly, not pfi but direct taxation into projects of some sorts.

Like you I don't have the answers and I'm not sure many think tanks are going to be looking on obscure football forums for them. But nevertheless worth a go.

Perhaps we could have access to some form of Social Funding ...................

 

[Deleted Cyber]

So what would you do with the 'wonts' as you put it. Would you do the same as Papper and force them into work? Live in workhouses? Take their children from them?

Rather than lambasting people for keeping them with 'your' taxes, what would you do?

Fuck sometimes you keep on. I have told you my view so many times its fucking boring for others on this thread. I would scrap the welfare state completely and have universal basic income of 10 k for every adult in the UK. I would then remove all basic tax allowances and go 10% up tyo 20k 25% up to 40k 30% up to 50k 40% up to 100k 50% over 100k on everything you earned. What would happen in my view is people could afford to do less hours so they would make 2 jobs for 3 people. It would cost 200 billion a year more. It solves benefit fraud. There is none. It is better for health as you could work less. It creates jobs. It enables better family and child care. What's not to like?

Can't be done under EU rules but could be done post brexit I believe

 

[visage]

Well, the fact that most service workers in the south east will have to move to the midlands in order to afford somewhere to live...

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The subsection of people who actively choose not to work and game the system is absolutely tiny. As Vis has said before, there hasn't been a welfare system created in the entire history of the world that has been immune from abuse.

We either have a welfare system and trust that it benefits the many when they need it, or we cut people adrift wholesale because a few isolated people take the piss. I know which option I think is the better one.

Posted from my ivory tower in leafy suburbia

 

[ProgWolf]

Indeed. We're taking my eldest daughter to see Les Mis for her birthday. Had to sell the youngest daughter to pay for it. Frighteningly expensive.But sold out for months so...

Brilliant show. My problem is the first time I saw it was on BBC2 with 'The Dream Cast' on the 10 year anniversary, with Colm Wilkinson as Jean Valjean and Philip Quast as Javert. Since then no-one comes close to those two and the recent film was an abomination.

 

[Johnny75]

$#@! sometimes you keep on. I have told you my view so many times its $#@!ing boring for others on this thread. I would scrap the welfare state completely and have universal basic income of 10 k for every adult in the UK. I would then remove all basic tax allowances and go 10% up tyo 20k 20% up to 40k 30% up to 50k 40% up to 100k 50% over 100k on everything you earned. What would happen in my view is people could afford to do less hours so they would make 2 jobs for 3 people. It would cost 200 billion a year more. It solves benefit fraud. There is none. It is better for health as you could work less. It creates jobs. It enables better family and child care. What's not to like?

Can't be done under EU rules but could be done post brexit I believe

I have no idea why you keep attacking me it looks a little childish and I don't want to get in a swearing match with you again as you get all hissy, your grammar turns to rubbish, you attack my work through jealousy and then flounce off to Jack for the evening complaining about hating people.

Wasn't the UI theory debunked as unworkable right now. Given this government isn't going to implement this before Brexit it is pretty unlikely and so really just a wild theory, it would be nice to have something that is workable in the short term and as you are pushing just one theory it is hard to reconcile that with you moaning about the workshy.

 

[Papper]

I wonder how often anyone from a Local Government Dept has sat down with some of the parents who 'choose' a life on the dole, or feel that they are unable to achieve anything else but that ? If they were confronted about their children and asked what they wanted for their children's future, would they really say that they didn't care if they emulated what they did and also spent their entire life on the dole with numerous kids of their own ? Surely the only way to break the circle is Education and ongoing discussion ?

There must be examples of people who have broken that cycle and turned their lives around. Are their stories being shared and discussed with other supposed 'lost causes' ? Perhaps some people don't want to be helped, but when challenged, surely most Mothers would want more for their children than to sit on their arses all day or drift into a life of drugs and crime ?

I have no qualifications on the subject, these are just my opinions. So why aren't the 'powers that be' getting off their arses and helping some of these people to break that cycle ? Or is it going on but not being reported ?

It's quite sad that society creates this underclass and the solution is to import cheap labour and let them fester. Suspect it's the bi-product of the few getting stinking rich. We are all consumer units and if we don't consume we are worthless to these people.

 

[Papper]

The subsection of people who actively choose not to work and game the system is absolutely tiny. As Vis has said before, there hasn't been a welfare system created in the entire history of the world that has been immune from abuse.

We either have a welfare system and trust that it benefits the many when they need it, or we cut people adrift wholesale because a few isolated people take the piss. I know which option I think is the better one.

Posted from my ivory tower in leafy suburbia

The costs are far more than welfare when you factor in Education, NHS and almost every other public service that costs are dependant on demand and therefore the population. For every low paid migrant working to cover somebody who can't be bothered to work you are not only keeping one of these who is unproductive you are also doubling demand on already stretched public service. How many man hours since 97 have been filled by low paid migrants while others were idle?

 

[ProgWolf]

The subsection of people who actively choose not to work and game the system is absolutely tiny. As Vis has said before, there hasn't been a welfare system created in the entire history of the world that has been immune from abuse.

We either have a welfare system and trust that it benefits the many when they need it, or we cut people adrift wholesale because a few isolated people take the piss. I know which option I think is the better one.

Posted from my ivory tower in leafy suburbia

What South Staffs ? Yeah, you said it.