REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[ProgWolf]

I don't think it's 'at last' it's been said for years. The article describes it well - it's not just about wanting kids to do well, it's about helping them to do well - that includes discipline for the child (and parent), and supporting them at home with homework and stability. Essentially putting the child before yourself - a lot of the motivation for migrants is to improve life for their children, and accepting it may mean your life comes second.

I agree with all of that. People from my generation who grew up in the 70's had parents would instilled a strong work ethic into them from a very early age. We knew that you could never get something for nothing and that you had to work hard to get what you wanted. That was the theory at least. We would never dream of being on the dole as a lifestyle choice.

So what went wrong between then and now ? Why do we have this so called 'underclass' who don't instil any ambition into their children and couldn't seem to care less as to what they make of their lives ? Why would you want your kids to under achieve at school and then spend their life on the dole ?

 

[ProgWolf]

Yes. It's an insurance based system, not a contribution based system.

By your reasoning children shouldn't get NHS care as they haven't paid in either.

The parent(s) should take out a health insurance policy that covers the family. It's called taking responsibility for you and your family.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Without looking back at your previous comments, I don't know what your attitude is towards Immigration. Where you want to live may not depend on your attitude towards Immigration. It's usually more to do with where you would prefer to live if you had the choice and / or the money ? The example I gave was Tim Farron, who is a champion of multiculturalism and I dared to suggest, and it was only my opinion, that he was a hypocrite, because he lives in The Lake District. I also said that I was sick to death of hearing from white middle class people, telling me how diversity and multiculturalism was so wonderful, when they all live in white middle class leafy suburbia. It just smacks of 'Nimbyism', or 'Do As I Say, Not As I Do'.

For the people who live on a council estate in an Industrial town and, for different reasons, will never be able to move to somewhere like Cheshire, Cornwall or one of the Home Counties etc, they have to accept whatever happens in their area, or whoever moves into their area, whether they like or not.

So when you are deciding where to move to, if you were looking for a house in Birmingham, would Sparkbrook be a consideration for you ? This is where, as expected from some, the Racist card was thrown at me.

I was just telling the truth as I see it and as I have experienced it.

Why is it that you do not see many white faces when you drive through Sparkbrook ?

Is it for the same reason that you don't see many non-white faces when you drive through The Lake District or many parts of Cheshire ? Perhaps it's because Muhammed Ali is still right in his comments from the mid-70's, that 'birds of a feather still flock together' ? But why, after years and years of so many different nationalities coming into the UK, do we still keep to within our ethnic group ?

The usual reply from the usual suspects on here are to dismiss my comments as 'Racist Crap'. Perhaps it hits a nerve with a few inconvenient and uncomfortable truths ? If you do live in white middle class leafy suburbia, then how can you have any idea about the concerns of people living in places like Lincolnshire and why they do not want that many Immigrants coming into their area because of what they see as a negative impact on their lives and on the infrastructure ? This has been covered before but again the discussion ends quickly after the 'Race' card comes out. They will never understand why people could vote to Leave the EU because of these concerns. Maybe I would be the same if I had lived a sheltered life in The Lake District ?

For 40 years, I never had to walk through Wolverhampton Town / City Centre, and listen to so many accents from Eastern Europe. It makes me feel uncomfortable in my home town, as it does to see groups of Romanian men walking through the City Centre. I don't like it and I think there are too many Immigrants here now. Up until 10 years ago, I never felt this way. Too many people have come in too quickly. Perhaps if you are in your teens or twenties and everything you can see and hear around you is all you have ever known, then maybe you are more happy with the current situation, than you would be if you felt that you had mass, rapid immigration forced on you whether you wanted it or not.

With the Race Card, it's got to the stage where I hesitate to talk about some of my non-white friends.
It's like the liberal left cant wait to pounce on it with their usual diatribe and ridicule. "I'm not a racist, but....." "I'm not a racist because I have a black friend..."

Perhaps it's better if I keep my non-white friends out of this ? Damned if I do / Damned if I don't ?

For what it's worth, many first and second generation immigrants from the Commonwealth also share concerns about the sheer volume of immigrants coming in from Eastern Europe and the speed at which they have come in. (Links available on request) Up until a few years ago, Migrants always 'trickled' into the UK but we never saw as much resentment towards immigration as we do now (over 70% of people concerned about current levels). It's still the main reason why so many people voted to Leave the EU and maybe this sticks in the craw of the white middle class who will never understand why and just dismiss so many people as racists.

I don't like the fact that working class people are demonised in some quarters as being 'lazy and don't want to work'.
I don't like the implication that all 'foreign workers have a wonderful work ethic and they all do the jobs that our own lazy working class don't want to do' Perhaps they are the type of myth propagated by the white middle classes, safe from it all in their Ivory Towers, who only ever come into contact with other white middle class people on a day to day basis ?

There are other issues. The NHS. Health Tourism. Why my parents had to pay to be in a Nursing Home when they had both worked and paid into 'the system' for over 50 years. Hadn't they fu*king paid enough ? Whilst people can seemingly come here from all over the world and get free treatment because after all, it's free at the point of use isn't it ? Well it might be free to some people, but when you have paid tax and National Insurance for fifty fu*king years, then it's not free is it.

If anyone cares to discuss any of the issues I've raised then I would welcome that.

If anyone wishes to dismiss it as racist crap and give me a load of abuse, I look forward to that too as I don't mind fighting fire with fire.

I'm not really sure how to approach this response to be honest, parts of it I can see some logic in, some leaves me a bit lost and parts just have me wanting to scream back in your face but we'll see how it goes.

I'm not really sure on the fascination with Tim Farron, I don't really see the issue with a man who's living in his constituency, he's not even a million miles way from 'home' considering it seems he was born/raised in Preston. Surely most people have aspirations to move a better place as their life moves on? I know plenty of people round here who'd hope to end up somewhere like Bridgnorth rather than see out their days in some nothing town between Walsall and Wolverhampton, I don't think that should mean that they can't have an opinion on some of the circumstances/issues that they've left behind.

You keep citing that you consider hypocritical for these 'outsiders' who aren't experience the issue first hand to have their say in support of what you perceive to be the problem but then you tar everyone with the same brush of 'middle class white people', you're very keen to point out that 'they' don't know what it's like for you but we can easily turn that on it's head and say you presumably don't know what life's like for your typical 'leafy suburban family' either? Is that not a little hypocritical of you to comment on their thoughts and ideas without knowing for yourself? This is one of the points that had me at a bit of a loss, at times it just comes across like jealousy that these people have managed to achieve something you haven't, they've moved on from the industrial areas and working class lifestyle and sometimes you come across bitter like they've all fucked off and left you in the shit. It's like you're just sat there sulking, surrounded by foreigners of course, wishing you were somewhere better.

I think a lot of the stuff you're getting angry about, the perceived segregation from some communities and such, is just natural progression in terms of how communities form and develop.

If you look where most major towns/cities are they're built around a resource, when Britain became industrialised these are the areas that people flooded to for work, they become highly developed and there were lots of areas that ended up pretty much as a slum as workers piled in a got a roof over their heads however possible to try and earn some money. Over time some people/families generated enough wealth to escape the worst of these areas and moved to somewhere nicer but these poorer areas still existed and still got topped up by the new arrivals coming to find work in the industrialised towns with little money to begin with. I think we're still seeing that process happening now, with the difference being that the 'topping up' is largely coming from foreign nationals looking for work, naturally drawn to the areas with a higher concentration of work and often with little choice but the poorer ends of town as they arrive from poorer countries with little money. I'm sure they'd love to come straight in and rock up with some fancy pad down in the Cotswolds on £60k a year but it's not going to happen, they have to start where they can afford to and attempt to work their way up.

In the case of places like Sparkbrook where there appears to be little integration, again I think that's just natural community build up, for whatever reason there ended up being a large population in the area of Asian descent and now I think that's established to a point that it's sort of self perpetuating. I don't think it's as simple as all the brown people sticking together though, families tend to stay fairly local in my experience unless something significant draws them away so as generations have gone by families have expanded and help homogonise these type of areas. It's going to be exemplified by incoming migrants too, it comes back to the earlier idea of people following resources but they've changed in their form these days. If you were a migrant from say India wouldn't you be drawn to an area where there were plentiful shops selling the sorts of goods and produce you were used to back home? Where facilities were readily available for you to practise your religion and customs? People choose areas based on what suits them within their price range, not necessarily by the people in those areas.

There are a whole range of difference reasons why people choose to live where they do, the pratical such as commuting and cost, the emotive such as family and friends, and all kinds of different bespoke reasons that will vary from individual to individual.

 

[visage]

I wonder if theres a basic error being made;

Immigrant areas are indeed often shitholes, but they were shitholes long before immigration. But that made them cheap, so when people arrive with no money they settle there. And as subsequent generations arrive they settle near people who are like them.

It might be easy to blame 'others' for the state of an area, but it isnt necessarily true.

 

[arklowolf]

I wonder if theres a basic error being made;

Immigrant areas are indeed often $#@!holes, but they were $#@!holes long before immigration. But that made them cheap, so when people arrive with no money they settle there. And as subsequent generations arrive they settle near people who are like them.

It might be easy to blame 'others' for the state of an area, but it isnt necessarily true.

Was over at the cricket last year. Walked from New St. To Edgbaston. Walked past some fine houses that would have been owned by the 'well to do' in years gone by. The place is now a shit hole. Unpainted, filthy dirty, unkempt gardens, rubbish everywhere. Different way of life. Different 'civilisation'.
Not much to do with the eu though.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Was over at the cricket last year. Walked from New St. To Edgbaston. Walked past some fine houses that would have been owned by the 'well to do' in years gone by. The place is now a shit hole. Unpainted, filthy dirty, unkempt gardens, rubbish everywhere. Different way of life. Different 'civilisation'.
Not much to do with the eu though.

Have most not been turned into flats, bedsits, etc?

 

[visage]

Crikey. You had time to check the ownership of all those houses?

 

[Derby Wolf]

I wonder if theres a basic error being made;

Immigrant areas are indeed often shitholes, but they were shitholes long before immigration. But that made them cheap, so when people arrive with no money they settle there. And as subsequent generations arrive they settle near people who are like them.

It might be easy to blame 'others' for the state of an area, but it isnt necessarily true.

There's a theory of invasion and succession forwarded by the Chicago School which touches on this. It involves a chain reaction, with each preceding immigrant wave moving outwards and being succeeded by more recent, poorer immigrants beginning the road to being tolerated by society. I say tolerated rather than accepted because you only have to listen to the rhetoric of people saying "this used to be such a nice area" that some whilst not necessarily outwardly racist don't expect to share neighbourhoods with other communities.

 

[arklowolf]

I don't think it's 'at last' it's been said for years. The article describes it well - it's not just about wanting kids to do well, it's about helping them to do well - that includes discipline for the child (and parent), and supporting them at home with homework and stability. Essentially putting the child before yourself - a lot of the motivation for migrants is to improve life for their children, and accepting it may mean your life comes second.

Crikey. You had time to check the ownership of all those houses?

The main problem isnt the creatures inhabiting them.

 

[visage]

Creatures?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Hahhahahaha

 

[Stan Hullis]

What's the joke?

 

[lemonjelly]

Yeah, that's not funny, and to laugh at it is worse imo.

 

[lemonjelly]

There's a theory of invasion and succession forwarded by the Chicago School which touches on this. It involves a chain reaction, with each preceding immigrant wave moving outwards and being succeeded by more recent, poorer immigrants beginning the road to being tolerated by society. I say tolerated rather than accepted because you only have to listen to the rhetoric of people saying "this used to be such a nice area" that some whilst not necessarily outwardly racist don't expect to share neighbourhoods with other communities.

The thing is, it has very much been this way. In my reading up of late victorian history, there is an incessant theme running through newspaper reports and similar regarding the jews who fled russia and surrounding areas through the 1870's owing to the pogroms that were occurring. Many fled to the UK or america. Because they were impoverished, fleeing with what they could wear & carry, they tended to settle in poor quality accommodation in the east end of london, where they could afford to. They tended to share accommodation. Families and friends lived together. They would also set up businesses together.
A lot of newspapers, and people didn't like this. These people spoke differently, had different religious beliefs etc. There was a constant argument that the jews were providing cheap labour, undercutting fine english workers, and so on.
The term foreigner was used euphemistically to mean a jew. Eye witnesses to crimes generally used to identify suspects as "foreign" meaning jewish.
During the Jack the Ripper crimes of 1888, it wasn't unusual for newspapers/commentators to proclaim that the crimes were obviously committed by a foreigner, as no english man would commit such a crime.

So in over 120 years, although we claim to be a progressive society, and have introduced legislation like the equalities act etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

The thing is, it has very much been this way. In my reading up of late victorian history, there is an incessant theme running through newspaper reports and similar regarding the jews who fled russia and surrounding areas through the 1870's owing to the pogroms that were occurring. Many fled to the UK or america. Because they were impoverished, fleeing with what they could wear & carry, they tended to settle in poor quality accommodation in the east end of london, where they could afford to. They tended to share accommodation. Families and friends lived together. They would also set up businesses together.
A lot of newspapers, and people didn't like this. These people spoke differently, had different religious beliefs etc. There was a constant argument that the jews were providing cheap labour, undercutting fine english workers, and so on.
The term foreigner was used euphemistically to mean a jew. Eye witnesses to crimes generally used to identify suspects as "foreign" meaning jewish.
During the Jack the Ripper crimes of 1888, it wasn't unusual for newspapers/commentators to proclaim that the crimes were obviously committed by a foreigner, as no english man would commit such a crime.

So in over 120 years, although we claim to be a progressive society, and have introduced legislation like the equalities act etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

But the ripper was a foreigner. An American doctor I believe....!!

 

[Johnny75]

The thing is, it has very much been this way. In my reading up of late victorian history, there is an incessant theme running through newspaper reports and similar regarding the jews who fled russia and surrounding areas through the 1870's owing to the pogroms that were occurring. Many fled to the UK or america. Because they were impoverished, fleeing with what they could wear & carry, they tended to settle in poor quality accommodation in the east end of london, where they could afford to. They tended to share accommodation. Families and friends lived together. They would also set up businesses together.
A lot of newspapers, and people didn't like this. These people spoke differently, had different religious beliefs etc. There was a constant argument that the jews were providing cheap labour, undercutting fine english workers, and so on.
The term foreigner was used euphemistically to mean a jew. Eye witnesses to crimes generally used to identify suspects as "foreign" meaning jewish.
During the Jack the Ripper crimes of 1888, it wasn't unusual for newspapers/commentators to proclaim that the crimes were obviously committed by a foreigner, as no english man would commit such a crime.

So in over 120 years, although we claim to be a progressive society, and have introduced legislation like the equalities act etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

I would say it goes further back than that LJ, if you go and visit Venice they have a Jewish quarter and it used to be known as a Jewish slum as that is where they were herded into in the 14/15th century.

I don't think any of the most developed societies of the time (Venice being the pinnacle in that era) have moved on and it will always be this way as fundamentally humans are a defensive bunch and fear change. I have no answers to this but laughing at 'creatures' only seems to reinforce the evidence.

 

[Derby Wolf]

The thing is, it has very much been this way. In my reading up of late victorian history, there is an incessant theme running through newspaper reports and similar regarding the jews who fled russia and surrounding areas through the 1870's owing to the pogroms that were occurring. Many fled to the UK or america. Because they were impoverished, fleeing with what they could wear & carry, they tended to settle in poor quality accommodation in the east end of london, where they could afford to. They tended to share accommodation. Families and friends lived together. They would also set up businesses together.
A lot of newspapers, and people didn't like this. These people spoke differently, had different religious beliefs etc. There was a constant argument that the jews were providing cheap labour, undercutting fine english workers, and so on.
The term foreigner was used euphemistically to mean a jew. Eye witnesses to crimes generally used to identify suspects as "foreign" meaning jewish.
During the Jack the Ripper crimes of 1888, it wasn't unusual for newspapers/commentators to proclaim that the crimes were obviously committed by a foreigner, as no english man would commit such a crime.

So in over 120 years, although we claim to be a progressive society, and have introduced legislation like the equalities act etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

Absolutely. I stuck to post war but pre war you had the Aliens Act 1905 and (i think) 1919 to restrict the Jewish immigration you describe.

The Commonwealth Immigrants Act (1948) was predicated on migrant Labour building the welfare state but theres extensive literature that whilst they could build, work and deliver welfare utilising it made them scroungers there's an excellent article on migrant labour by Fiona Williams.

If you look at the release of Race Relations Acts its quickly followed and subverted by more draconian Immigration Acts. The '68 RRA was followed by the '68 Immigration Act which prevented displaced British passport holders from Kenya settling in Britain unless their father was born here so we were choosing who and to what extent people were British and offered assistance to those here to go home.

It's the shadow of Empire; even progressives like the Fabians and Beveridge weren't free from nationalistic views. In his namesake report said that British women had an important role as housewives in adequately continuing the British race and British ideals in the world"

 

[lemonjelly]

Agree with you both. I suppose I was just trying to say that people have always feared outsiders. Not necessarily for rational reasons.

 

[visage]

Indeed. And it's tough. When you see comments on threads like this and you try and discern rational concerns but get nothing.... People fill in the blanks.

 

[ProgWolf]

This is probably off topic but in light of some of the recent posts on here I think it's relevant.

Maybe for some, the older you get the more problems you have with change, in many aspects of life.

For me, Football / Supporting Wolves, is one of many. Having watched John Richards and Kenny Hibbitt in the 70's and early 80's, the cost of watching then was never that high and neither were the wages that footballers were getting paid. Even up to watching Bully play, ok his wages were by then were considerably higher 'pro-rata' then in the 70's, but I still justified it because a lot of the time it was worth paying knowing Bully was in the team. Over the last few years I am now picking my games. This season I have seen 8 home games and 2 away games.

It's the personal conflict I have with having Wolves in the blood all of my life after my Father supported Wolves through the 50's, but he was still there with me, to watch every home game in Divisions Four and Three. The standard of football is so poor today but we have to pay so much to watch it and very average players earn an absolute fortune. Even if some argue that the standard of football in the 70's and 90's was also poor, perhaps it didn't bother me as much because it didn't cost so much to watch it. Or maybe I'm just getting older and see things differently now ?

On a far more serious note, watching the Panorama Documentary last year, on the Qatar World Cup (I didn't see it first time round) was the beginning of the end of my lifelong love affair with football. On top of the fact that average footballers earn ridiculously high amounts of money, we now have the World Cup in Qatar in 2022. I don't give a sh*t about what the temperature will be when it kicks off. I'm even passed caring about the $500M they are apparently spending every week on World Cup projects. It's too be expected now. No-one is naive enough to think that millions of dollars didn't change hands via FIFA in order for Qatar to get the world cup in the first place.

What angers me, saddens me and sickens me the most is the people who have died, so far, in building the stadiums in Qatar. Of course the Slave Trade is still very much alive and kicking in the 21st Century and once again it's migrants who are dying during the work and being exploited. Naturally the Qatari authorities would not wish to discuss this let alone divulge any figures in a death toll or talk about migrants living conditions. It's Evil and it's rotten to the core.

In 2014, The Guardian said that migrant workers in Qatar, were dying at the rate of one every two days in 2014.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/qatar-nepal-workers-world-cup-2022-death-toll-doha4


Other sources have that figure a lot higher, others are unable to substantiate an exact figure either way ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838


The BBC link says "Living and working conditions for migrants in Qatar are appalling. Long hours in the blazing heat, low pay and squalid dormitories, are a daily ordeal for thousands - and they cannot leave without an exit visa".

But, in 2022, when the mega rich players from England, Germany, Spain etc, walk out into those brand new stadiums, with their multi billion pound sponsors orchestrating the whole gravy train, will anyone remember any of the above ? Millionaires playing football in stadiums built by some of the poorest, most exploited people, many of whom lost their lives helping to build the stadiums and the rest having to live in squalor and unable to leave until all the work was complete.

Are we all guilty by association, in playing our own small part by funding the madness that is modern day football ?
Some will of course say we have a choice. We don't have to pay to watch and we can switch TV channels if we wish.
It's hard to just switch off from football totally when it's been in your blood for so long and handed down from your parents etc.

The situation in Qatar certainly does not rest easy with me, the online reports, the Panorama Documentary, it just made me feel physically sick. It has affected me so much that I cannot remember the last time I watched an England game on TV.
I'm watching less and less Wolves games as the years go by. Perhaps it's gradually being forced out of my system, because of the reasons given above ?

Sorry for the rant and the usual ramble and apologies if it's off topic, but it does mess with my head.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/03/qatar-world-cup-of-shame/