REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deleted Cyber]

And how does that work when some pay little tax due to them being on a low wage? Surely it's an average?

Yes it is but the figures were done to show who gets the best taxation spend and that's Scotland. They get more spent by far than they pay in.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Yes it is but the figures were done to show who gets the best taxation spend and that's Scotland. They get more spent by far than they pay in.

So has no significance to the comment I made then?

 

[visage]

However in England that is not the case. Currently every English citizen gets about 70p return for every £1 paid in tax. Scotland is around £1.30 for every pound paid. Wales and NI between 1.10 and 1.20 for every pound paid. So England tax payers are subsidising Scotland's free prescriptions or free tuition fees hence why when push comes to shove, Scotland voted and will again vote to remain with the union

But where do you stop?

Londoners contribute more than rural inhabitants for example.

 

[YoungWolf]

For fuck sake - if you feel uncomfortable with people speaking other languages do you not see how people find your views extremely questionable? Why are you afraid of something different? Who cares what people look and talk like? What are your fears?

Does that mean you can never go on holiday? Wouldn't want to be uncomfortable, surely?

 

[YoungWolf]

To be honest I'm not bothered in the slightest, it's no different to the British OAP migrants in Spain, or the overseas workers in Dubai or even me when I worked for an NGO overseas. Yes it would be better if people mixed more, though they do mix more than you think - 'mixed race' is the fastest growing ethnicity in the UK.

I don't really see this as 'MY' country, it's where I live and it's where I would hope to contribute to society, but it's not 'mine' just because my ancestors migrated here earlier than someone else's.

Spot on.

 

[visage]

Yup. Nailed it.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

So has no significance to the comment I made then?

No I feel it does. Generally every tax payer in England gets less than they pay in while the rest of the UK Gets more. I was showing it holistically rather than individually. Tax is unique to each persons circumstances so difficult to truly determine individual plusses and minuses

 

[Penk Wolf]

I guess it's no difference to how some people feel about groups of young lads, intimidated rather than anything else.

I personally wouldn't want to walk through Sparkbrook on a late night, but wouldn't have a problem sitting in a cafe or a pub and chatting with various people during the day.

 

[ProgWolf]

For fuck sake - if you feel uncomfortable with people speaking other languages do you not see how people find your views extremely questionable? Why are you afraid of something different? Who cares what people look and talk like? What are your fears?

Does that mean you can never go on holiday? Wouldn't want to be uncomfortable, surely?

When I go abroad, on holiday, I don't expect anyone to speak English. If they do it's a bonus, if they don't then I always prepare in advance of the trip and I always find a way to communicate in their language and it's always appreciated.

If you see yourself as someone who is tolerant, then why can you not show more tolerance towards how uncomfortable some people feel, about walking through their town centre and hearing so many foreign accents ? But I can't afford to move to The Lake District and live next door to Tim Farron can I ?

The people of this country were never asked if they wanted Freedom of Movement forced on them, and for good reason as it would have been overwhelmingly rejected. Hence why the majority of the Electorate voted to Leave the EU.

 

[visage]

What are the downsides of living in the areas you've mentioned that would cause people to reassess their support for multiculturalism?

?

 

[ProgWolf]

To be honest I'm not bothered in the slightest, it's no different to the British OAP migrants in Spain, or the overseas workers in Dubai or even me when I worked for an NGO overseas. Yes it would be better if people mixed more, though they do mix more than you think - 'mixed race' is the fastest growing ethnicity in the UK.

I don't really see this as 'MY' country, it's where I live and it's where I would hope to contribute to society, but it's not 'mine' just because my ancestors migrated here earlier than someone else's.

So if a person was born here and lived here all of their life and paid Income Tax and National Insurance into 'the system' for over 50 years, compared to someone who has been in the country a few weeks, months or a couple of years etc, and contributed barely anything or nothing at all into 'the system', do you think they should still be entitled to exactly the same things like free NHS treatment for example or state benefits ?

When I was in Spain with my Son and he needed hospital treatment, it certainly wasn't given for nothing. We had to pay for it.

 

[visage]

Yes. It's an insurance based system, not a contribution based system.

By your reasoning children shouldn't get NHS care as they haven't paid in either.

 

[Tredman]

So if a person was born here and lived here all of their life and paid Income Tax and National Insurance into 'the system' for over 50 years, compared to someone who has been in the country a few weeks, months or a couple of years etc, and contributed barely anything or nothing at all into 'the system', do you think they should still be entitled to exactly the same things like free NHS treatment for example or state benefits ?

When I was in Spain with my Son and he needed hospital treatment, it certainly wasn't given for nothing. We had to pay for it.

If it's EU it's a reciprocal arrangemebt, so we should recoup costs from original country. You should have got an EHIC card before going to Spain.

If you come from outside EU you entitled to jack - you are not even allowed in without health insurance.

Next urban myth?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Of course that hospital treatment in Spain will be something that we all have to pay for or insure against in future as EHIC cards are one of those things that Leave have decided I don't want or need.

 

[Penk Wolf]

So if a person was born here and lived here all of their life and paid Income Tax and National Insurance into 'the system' for over 50 years, compared to someone who has been in the country a few weeks, months or a couple of years etc, and contributed barely anything or nothing at all into 'the system', do you think they should still be entitled to exactly the same things like free NHS treatment for example or state benefits ?

When I was in Spain with my Son and he needed hospital treatment, it certainly wasn't given for nothing. We had to pay for it.

I don't get it, on your way of thinking, if the person who has been in for 50 years, but has taken out more than they've paid in, does that mean the new person who hasn't paid or taken out deserve more?

 

[Johnny75]

When I go abroad, on holiday, I don't expect anyone to speak English. If they do it's a bonus, if they don't then I always prepare in advance of the trip and I always find a way to communicate in their language and it's always appreciated.

If you see yourself as someone who is tolerant, then why can you not show more tolerance towards how uncomfortable some people feel, about walking through their town centre and hearing so many foreign accents ? But I can't afford to move to The Lake District and live next door to Tim Farron can I ?

The people of this country were never asked if they wanted Freedom of Movement forced on them, and for good reason as it would have been overwhelmingly rejected. Hence why the majority of the Electorate voted to Leave the EU.

What has freedom of movement got to do with living in Sparkbrook. Not many non-British EU nationals living there. More of an Asian area.

My take on the languages is that you fear them for some reason as you do not understand them and have automatically set them as a threat. That is on you really not them, have you the chance to engage with them? I agree the integration isn't great and both sides could do more but only if the desire was there, is it there from your side?

There is a problem with Muslim radicalisation as today may yet prove but the EU freedom of movement has nothing to do with this and nor does it with peadophile rings with Asian men of largely Pakistani origin. To mix the two is a stupid thing to do and shows a lack of understanding.

My father worked hard to get into middle class from basically a Scottish underclass background and he despised the victim status many have adopted and whilst you may not like it the Eastern Europeans you so dislike have decided they can achieve a better life by working in another country. That is to be admired not whined about.

 

[ProgWolf]

What are the downsides of living in the areas you've mentioned that would cause people to reassess their support for multiculturalism?

Well if white middle class people have only ever lived in a white middle class area, why would they want to reassess multiculturalism ?

The fact is that we have areas in our towns and cities were you hardly ever see a white person. It's not rocket science. It would seem that people prefer to live with other people from their own ethnic group. I'm just surprised that in 2017, after over 50 years of so called 'Integration' that areas like this still exist.

As for re-assessing multiculturalism, for all of the black and white families that have moved out of Sparkbrook (or similar areas) over the last twenty years, perhaps they felt that the two cultures were not compatible. If that is not the reason, then why did they move away ?

 

[visage]

Well if white middle class people have only ever lived in a white middle class area, why would they want to reassess multiculturalism ?

The fact is that we have areas in our towns and cities were you hardly ever see a white person. It's not rocket science. It would seem that people prefer to live with other people from their own ethnic group. I'm just surprised that in 2017, after over 50 years of so called 'Integration' that areas like this still exist.

As for re-assessing multiculturalism, for all of the black and white families that have moved out of Sparkbrook (or similar areas) over the last twenty years, perhaps they felt that the two cultures were not compatible. If that is not the reason, then why did they move away ?

Thats not answering the point, is it?

You've suggested, repeatedly, that people like Tim Farron wouldnt be so keen on multiculturalism if they lived in a multicultural area. All Im asking is why you think he (and others like him) would change their mind if they lived in somewhere like Sparkbrook?

What tangible things would make him reconsider his support?

 

[Penk Wolf]

Thats not answering the point, is it?

You've suggested, repeatedly, that people like Tim Farron wouldnt be so keen on multiculturalism if they lived in a multicultural area. All Im asking is why you think he (and others like him) would change their mind if they lived in somewhere like Sparkbrook?

What tangible things would make him reconsider his support?

I'm guessing it would be the same with Huyton or Bootle or Moss Side, which suggests it's more class related rather than anything else.

 

[ProgWolf]

What has freedom of movement got to do with living in Sparkbrook. Not many non-British EU nationals living there. More of an Asian area.

My take on the languages is that you fear them for some reason as you do not understand them and have automatically set them as a threat. That is on you really not them, have you the chance to engage with them? I agree the integration isn't great and both sides could do more but only if the desire was there, is it there from your side?

There is a problem with Muslim radicalisation as today may yet prove but the EU freedom of movement has nothing to do with this and nor does it with peadophile rings with Asian men of largely Pakistani origin. To mix the two is a stupid thing to do and shows a lack of understanding.

My father worked hard to get into middle class from basically a Scottish underclass background and he despised the victim status many have adopted and whilst you may not like it the Eastern Europeans you so dislike have decided they can achieve a better life by working in another country. That is to be admired not whined about.

My comments on Freedom of Movement were not related to Sparkbrook, it's a separate issue. I was trying to say that as such a large Muslim population has grown there over the years, other ethnic groups have moved away from the area. I gave my reasons as to why I thought this had happened and invited others to give their reasons for it.

I really don't fear languages, but I don't see why our Governments have seen fit to allow so many East Europeans to come to England in such a short space of time. If there were smaller numbers spread more thinly across the UK, maybe that would have helped integration and we wouldn't have noticed such large numbers coming into our towns with less of a detrimental effect on a town's infrastructures and public services ?

You are right, it is the Eastern Europeans who have decided they can achieve a better life by coming here, but the people of this country were not asked if that's what we wanted. I don't blame any of them for wanting to come here, but given the choice and the money, I would prefer to live in an area where there were either none or just a tiny percentage.

If I were wealthy white middle class, then maybe I could afford to do that. Is that not what they choose to do ?
Then I could tell everyone to just embrace multiculturalism and stop whining ?

I know that my opinions on this will offend some on here, but at least I am being honest about the way I see things.