REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Johnny75]

Well I also do not expect a 16 million rush from remainers to look for employment abroad in the EU either.

And this also puts my plans on hold for any move to Spain. But actions have consequences.

Olive picking season delayed?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I cant comment on conjecture. Ask me again when we have left and have some trade figures to evidence it and I will give an honest answer.

I can understand what you are saying there Cyber. It is difficult to comment when so much is up in the air.

Can I direct you to possibly looking at my other query, the one about what (for you personally, as I appreciate there are many different opinions within the Leave camp on these issues) are the line in the sand issues?

I was thinking of these :
freedom of movement of citizens of the EU into the UK
freedom of movement of UK citizens into the broader EU
UK Payments into the EU project
UK entry into the EU free trade block while outside the EU post Brexit.

For you, what ones of those are the essentials?

I would also say that is where this elusive plan needs to start coming from. The Leave campaign needs to have a clear feel for what can and cannot be negotiated on in the position. That is going to be difficult as you have to appease the extreme hard exit views of Farage with the softer, we can still be friends rhetoric that might get a decent deal.

Just interested in what you thought personally.

 

[Johnny75]

At PMQs Cameron just passed the buck to his successor on the cash promised to Wales :/

So you want him to make promises he can't keep? What you missed was that he said his successor should keep those promises.

I wish people would stop plying half truths.

 

[Jolemai]

... which is passing the buck onto his successor, no? His successor has been challenged deliver the promises made by the leave camp, ergo Cameron has passed the buck on it.

 

[Johnny75]

... which is passing the buck onto his successor, no? His successor has been challenged deliver the promises made by the leave camp, ergo Cameron has passed the buck on it.

So you want somebody who isn't going to be there to make a promise he can't keep?

Seems realistic.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Why England specifically? Seeing as you are dragging Scotland along in this, seems a touch unfair on leaving them out in the population density question.

Oh dear...... then lets do that. Lets build a housing estate in Scotland for 300,000 migrants and let them move freely up there! Seriously?

Only 7% of the UK is built on but as you know the infrastructure has been so overwhelmingly under funded in proportion to the expanding population that we are short of housing, roads, schools, NHS funding etc to support the current levels of the population and that will not get better. There could not have been a worse time in the last 10 years to have held this referendum but remain and EU leaders were so cock sure they held it anyway. Brexiters only wanted the opportunity to vote and as it had been 40 years coming they took it and how.

Add to that the ludicrously London centric nature of business and you see why the vote compounds issues that already existed and were being ignored by successive governments or coalitions. That means all three main parties are culpable in my book.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Oh dear?

Behave.

You can't suddenly go "only England counts" because you want to do population density, when the whole decision has been UK related and Scotland are in against their will.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I can understand what you are saying there Cyber. It is difficult to comment when so much is up in the air.

Can I direct you to possibly looking at my other query, the one about what (for you personally, as I appreciate there are many different opinions within the Leave camp on these issues) are the line in the sand issues?

I was thinking of these :
freedom of movement of citizens of the EU into the UK
freedom of movement of UK citizens into the broader EU
UK Payments into the EU project
UK entry into the EU free trade block while outside the EU post Brexit.

For you, what ones of those are the essentials?

I would also say that is where this elusive plan needs to start coming from. The Leave campaign needs to have a clear feel for what can and cannot be negotiated on in the position. That is going to be difficult as you have to appease the extreme hard exit views of Farage with the softer, we can still be friends rhetoric that might get a decent deal.

Just interested in what you thought personally.

I will try. It is pure speculation but if I was in a position of power I would be looking to the following but nothing happens overnight.

freedom of movement of citizens of the EU into the UK- Passport stamp with immediate effect. Those entering for the first time after 1st July 2016 will need a visa post brexit and this will be automatic subject to them being in employment.
freedom of movement of UK citizens into the broader EU- visa as was
UK Payments into the EU project- have to keep paying them while we are members but I would say that also keeps our place at the table while they decide what to do with us not as what happened this week a 27 strong meeting without us. Only issues that will definitely be happening post Brexit should exclude us if we are paying members. There is no naughty step
UK entry into the EU free trade block while outside the EU post Brexit.- Dont cut your nose off to spite your face EU. We have a trade deficit. You want us to trade with you. Lets do a decent deal that benefits all asides. It is possible.
I am very pro European. I love visiting Europe and love it when my European friends visit me here. There is confusion. I do not like the EU or its direction given that we as a country were not willing to play by the rules at some stage further down the line this divorce was in my view, inevitable.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Cheers. Sounds like a good point to start a debate from. Will digest and make some comment back with my thoughts.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Oh dear?

Behave.

You can't suddenly go "only England counts" because you want to do population density, when the whole decision has been UK related and Scotland are in against their will.

But you cant go suggesting that because Scotland is much less densely populated there is space for plenty up there? I was being a tad facetious there I admit but my overall point stands. Its infrastructure. We are at capacity for our current infrastructure and it will take time to increase it and a lot of money.

We knew that. We have known it for 6 years of austerity. You cant squeeze a quart out of a pint. Or a litre out of 500 ml!

We knew the timing was awful. We knew there would be some issues. We knew it would take some time to sort. What we didnt know was that those charged with sorting it hadnt a fucking clue where to strt and in many cases no inclination to do it. Abdication of responsibilities on a grand scale. Does not help us move forward though. Although todays trading news and repots from companies like dixons have been positive. The public seem to be saying business as usual even if the markets have taken a hit

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

At what rate is the birth-rate and living population of UK citizens increasing, as a matter of interest?

We're having more and more children, fewer infant deaths and our elderly are living longer than ever.

Yes, but when things start to go tits up for people they like to blame an easy target = immigrants. Now we are in an almighty shower of shit (all of which was entirely predictable) because of it.

None of us that are EXTREMELY pissed off at having our EU citizenship removed from ourselves and our families against our will are tarnishing the entire group of leave voters with the same brush but it is obvious that intolerance of others has played a massive part in the leave side winning. As they say, not all Brexiters are racist but all racists are Brexiters.

I share Paddy's fury on this. The people I work with all voted out based on the fact that they don't want those horrible Eastern Europeans (would they be quite so intolerant of them if they spoke French or Spanish?) clogging up their hospitals and I am struggling to forgive them for it at this point. I am getting angrier by the day.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Starting with the EU payments one - that sounds completely sensible and the correct way to go. If a definite exit date is set then anything for payment beyond that date should be not chargeable I suppose. I also like your comment on no naughty step and still being involved in discussions and so on until exit is done. One fly in the ointment is we are due the Presidency in early 2017. Can't see that happening now, but it needs to be discussed. Someone else should step in, although it is mainly ceremonial. There will be some discussions that we shouldn't be involved in though - what the EU propose to do among themselves around the exit and beyond. We would have to sit out those discussions.

The Visa thing - ok, so that is freedom of movement of citizens definitely to go. Fair enough, and I note that you have suggested it must be reciprocal, which is absolutely true. It would be completely unrealistic to expect us to get all the gain and none of the pain there. It means then Visas needed for even short trips to the EU. A pain in the arse. But not an insurmountable one. I'm not sure how the "working" restriction will actually pan out. Families move here. Not everyone will be getting a job or have one lined up. Equally we have citizens who retire to Spain and France and other countries. They won't be working. Would they be denied visas?

Trade-wise, I get what you are saying. The trouble is you are trampling all over an EU red line that they won't cross. I can't see them agreeing at all. If you want the above, the best I can see coming is that a Hong Kong style agreement is put in place. We don't get charged tariffs with the EU, they don't charge tariffs to us. However, because we are outside the EU block, we aren't obliged to charge tariffs to anyone else either, and they won't charge back to us. Sounds great. It would take a lot of setting up. Equally it would mean vast cheaper imports that could destroy our manufacturing.

Like I say - interesting start to the proper debate. Beats going on about olives and population density anyway.

 

[Papper]

Could I ask the Brexiters here what they make of the apparent u-turn of the Brexit campaign over immigration and the use of EU funds in the future?

Do you think immigration numbers will drop and will the NHS get their 350 million a week?

If not, is this a problem?

I think we will be better off when we don't subsidise EU debts in a failed EU and bring about a sensible immigration policy. We don't need immigrant labour to fill unskilled jobs. It puts a strain on public services. We're in the EU two years and that is plenty enough time to execute a plan. Of course every plan needs a starting point else it is a mere contingency.

 

[So Long Architect]

I think we will be better off when we don't subsidise EU debts in a failed EU and bring about a sensible immigration policy. We don't need immigrant labour to fill unskilled jobs. It puts a strain on public services. We're in the EU two years and that is plenty enough time to execute a plan. Of course every plan needs a starting point else it is a mere contingency.

Do you think that we will be able to fill those unskilled jobs without immigration or that the unskilled jobs will no longer exist in the future?

 

[Papper]

Vodafone obviously running scared that'll have to pay their way. Just don't mention the cheap labour they exploit abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ccused-of-letting-Vodafone-off-8-billion.html

Nissan - Please Multi-National we'll give you lots of money if you come to England (and we'll buy your cars as well xxx )

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-15653060

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

That last sentence (in your earlier post) is completely true Papper.

On top of that, I see no point in further wailing about nasty Mr Cameron has committed cowardice by handing this over and won't do the plan, or indeed nasty Mr Johnson has won but has no plan in place. Neither point helps (bar maybe making the proponent of the point feel better for having a rant).

We are where we are. There are large chunks of the populace who will never forgive the position (myself included) but that doesn't mean that work doesn't need to start immediately to try and make the best of this absolute bollix of a position. There are also large chunks who will only go for absolute hard exit and no freedom of movement. There are chunks in the middle (Brexiteers who want a mild solution such as keeping trade and movement but removing EU sovereignty, or Remain voters who feel they can forgive). Everyone needs to be appeased by the plan going forward.

It is frankly an impossible task, but the Leave campaign need to be getting on with it. It will be their bag in a couple of months, whether Boris Johnson, Theresa May or Tom Bombadil is the next Prime Minister.

 

[Papper]

Do you think that we will be able to fill those unskilled jobs without immigration or that the unskilled jobs will no longer exist in the future?

Yes, for a start youth unemployment is high. Time to empower British Nationals ...

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Vodafone obviously running scared that'll have to pay their way. Just don't mention the cheap labour they exploit abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ccused-of-letting-Vodafone-off-8-billion.html

Nissan - Please Multi-National we'll give you lots of money if you come to England (and we'll buy your cars as well xxx )

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-15653060

Just mention the 8000 they already employ here then. Just collateral damage I guess.
Frankly I can't say I blame Nissan for suing at all. Clear breach of their IP.

 

[Bit on the shaggies]

Starting with the EU payments one - that sounds completely sensible and the correct way to go. If a definite exit date is set then anything for payment beyond that date should be not chargeable I suppose. I also like your comment on no naughty step and still being involved in discussions and so on until exit is done. One fly in the ointment is we are due the Presidency in early 2017. Can't see that happening now, but it needs to be discussed. Someone else should step in, although it is mainly ceremonial. There will be some discussions that we shouldn't be involved in though - what the EU propose to do among themselves around the exit and beyond. We would have to sit out those discussions.

The Visa thing - ok, so that is freedom of movement of citizens definitely to go. Fair enough, and I note that you have suggested it must be reciprocal, which is absolutely true. It would be completely unrealistic to expect us to get all the gain and none of the pain there. It means then Visas needed for even short trips to the EU. A pain in the arse. But not an insurmountable one. I'm not sure how the "working" restriction will actually pan out. Families move here. Not everyone will be getting a job or have one lined up. Equally we have citizens who retire to Spain and France and other countries. They won't be working. Would they be denied visas?

Trade-wise, I get what you are saying. The trouble is you are trampling all over an EU red line that they won't cross. I can't see them agreeing at all. If you want the above, the best I can see coming is that a Hong Kong style agreement is put in place. We don't get charged tariffs with the EU, they don't charge tariffs to us. However, because we are outside the EU block, we aren't obliged to charge tariffs to anyone else either, and they won't charge back to us. Sounds great. It would take a lot of setting up. Equally it would mean vast cheaper imports that could destroy our manufacturing.

Like I say - interesting start to the proper debate. Beats going on about olives and population density anyway.

Disagree with the first part. I don't believe that the UK should have a say in EU policy. You have voted to leave and accordingly you shouldn't have anything to do with legislation that will not apply to you very shortly or in which there is, potentially, massive conflict of interest.

Second part, Switzerland is about to lose all EU funding because it voted against the free movement of people. The EU has been steadfast on this, they won't accept restrictions without imposing repercussions.

I do wonder how the EU would react to a Hong Kong type agreement. It would probably incur tariffs on all goods that are not manufactured 100% within the UK as to stop opening a tariff free back-door to the rest of the world. I too would worry about British manufacturing.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yes, for a start youth unemployment is high. Time to empower British Nationals ...

What if they don't WANT to do these jobs? Sanctioning unemployment benefits doesn't seem to have pushed them any nearer to taking the roles, so what do you suggest to encourage them?