• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

The £350M was debunked straight away but it is clear and evident that we pay more in than we get out.
There has been a mass failure to negotiate a new relationship therefore the default position of exiting the EU which we decided to do in 2016 is what will happen on 1st November. Nobody can predict the exact nature of the few years ahead - it is ridiculous to think along those lines - It is pure conjecture but we were aware of that. We were not lead into the referednum blindfold. Both Dave and Gideon said we would leave the Single market BEFORE the referendum - see the link above.
This was confirmed after the referendum by both the inept May and the twat Letwin. Now we have the clown closing down Parliament because himself and the other clowns refuse or do not have the acumen/inclination to sort the mess out. None of that is made up. Please don't tell me or the 17.4 million others we were not able to make as good a choice as YOU. The judgment is the result of the referendum 52-48 not me OR you.

Person 1: "Don't do this - I know you think jumping off this cliff is a good idea, and the water looks inviting, but it's deceptively shallow."
Person 2: "Hmm. Not sure."
Person 3: "Nah go on mate, it's fine, trust me."

When Person 2 jumps and breaks their leg, it's pretty weird to think that's Person 1's fault rather than a combination of Person 2 and 3. Yet that's exactly what's been happening here with the rewriting of history when it comes to the "leaving the single market" issue - it is extremely telling that it's figures from the original Remain campaign warning that it might/could/will happen being pointed to as evidence, because there isn't any of the leaders of the Leave campaign. And of course you won't, because the promises of the Leave campaign as a whole were internally inconsistent (even just looking to the official Vote Leave camp, not including Leave.EU as well). Rather, there are extensive newspaper articles, TV debates, Question Time panels, tweets, and more from those who were prominent pro-Leave campaigners strenuously denying that leaving would mean also leaving the Single Market. The entire pitch for leaving was that the UK could have its cake and eat it. The idea that it would have any kind of downside was a post-referendum development, and one which has developed slowly at that.

Just because three years is a long time in our current reality, I'd like to just lay out exactly the journey we got to when getting here in terms of what was and wasn't "promised" RE: the future relationship with the EU:

- During the run-up to the referendum, the two Leave campaigns promised variations on our existing benefits as members of the EU while touting the benefits of leaving. This was primarily framed as being about immigration and cultural identity, and it was (mostly) argued that leaving would actually be economically beneficial to the UK economy. These promises were all based on bunk economics, the kind which relies on voters agreeing with them on the basis of "common sense" (see also: "you have to have austerity because national debt is like a credit card, and the country is like a household"), and the £350m-a-week figure is a classic example. The actual figure is completely irrelevant because the systemic economic benefits of being part of the EU dwarf whatever sums are coming and going from the Treasury. This was why the warnings about leaving the Single Market came from the Remain side, not Leave. You can't get away from Freedom of Movement without also leaving the Single Market, of course, but the Leave promise was that you could - and that it would be painless. This is important.
- In the immediate aftermath of the referendum, the logical inconsistencies of the Leave campaign led to immediate flailing as every kind of faction in Westminster tried to take back their own version of control. There was no mandate for any specific kind of Brexit (and there remains no mandate for any specific version) because the ballot paper only specified "Leave" or "Remain". It is impossible to argue that a Remain win would have meant a mandate for joining Schengen and the Euro for the same reason. In the weeks after the result, then two options started to appear: "hard" and "soft" Brexit. However, nobody advocated no deal. Nobody. It is suicide, and it was always recognised as suicide by even the most ardent Leave campaigners. "Hard" Brexit, at first, still meant being in the Customs Union. That's how far things have drifted.
- The dynamic that emerged after May became PM, however, drove everything towards polarisation. Her interpretation of Brexit was always that it was primarily a demand for tighter controls on immigration, which, conveniently for her, was what she had always wanted. So we got the Lancaster House speech, which again was internally inconsistent because it insisted on the UK being given everything it has now, without the membership fee, and without having to take Freedom of Movement.
- By this point "being able to negotiate our own trade deals" started to become a rallying cry for the Leave parts of the Conservative Party, many of whom have had a hard-on for radically pro-capitalist authoritarian countries like Singapore for years or decades. This was never more than a niche interest of the Tories, let alone the wider country, yet the necessary departure from the Single Market thanks to May's red line on immigration, and it provided a handy post-facto economic justification for something being primarily guided by party politics and the interpretation of the result as a backlash to immigration. Worth noting here also that while I call this a "niche" interest, that's only in terms of numbers of people interested in it; those people also tend to be wealthy white people in positions of power in business and politics, so their influence is nevertheless substantial. They tend to be those who see the trade issue as part of a larger story of the UK as seafaring/swashbuckling/entrepreneurial/insert whatever bollocks you want here that ignores the fact this country is only rich because it stole so much from the parts and people of the world it conquered, and leaving the EU is a way of restoring the UK's autonomy in this sense. These people are also often passionate fans of the Commonwealth and want a more powerful version of it - with the UK as its leader, of course - and at the extreme ends there are those who advocate some kind of "Anglophone Union" between the white settler-colonial Commonwealth states of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and possibly outliers like Ireland or South Africa, or alternatively some kind of closer connection with the US. The fact that India is never included in there except when it comes to the dogwhistly topic of "skilled immigration" is surely just an oversight, I'm sure. And, of course, it goes without saying that this constituency, which is also the only constituency which actually favours No Deal as an option according to repeating polling, is also the one best insulated from the economic shocks of Brexit and/or in positions to profit from it when it comes to opening up the UK economy to wider global interests. The UK has never been a powerful independent country; it has always only been powerful when it either had an Empire to feed off, or the EEC/EU to offer herd protection.
- Thus began the radicalisation of the core Tory voter, which is at the core of why things are so tense. You can point to other issues in Parliament, and fuck, I know it's tempting when so many of them are such colossal asses, but really the buck stops with the wider country as far as I'm concerned. You can't stick 650 people in a room with wildly different beliefs, ideologies, principles, and red lines, and expect to be able to form a majority among them for an option which - at best, according to polling data from before and after the referendum, and until only very recently - had the support of 10-15% of the population. May went to the country to try and get a mandate for her version of Brexit and failed precisely because of this. No version of Brexit actually majority-popular, but the vague concept is, and that (along with the slight increased support overall for Remain) has been enough to sustain and feed the crisis. May tried to plot a course that would compromise between her own principles, the principles of her party, and her interpretation of the result, and failed. Who says anyone could do any better from any other party that won a majority?
- After the 2017 election Brexit therefore had "always" meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. The EU was consistent from the start about what this mean in terms of future arrangements, and the May deal reflected that - it was a Hard Brexit in all but name. The only point of contention was the backstop, which was a proposal that originated from the UK side. The reason that it causes such conniptions for Leavers in government and in the Conservative Party, however, is that it directly exposes the divide between what was promised and what was actually intended by the main Leave campaigners in positions of power in politics and business. If it was true that there was a solution to having the UK and Ireland in different customs systems without having to implement a new solid border in the north then there would be no worry; we'd have left, and those plans would be being implemented. However, such systems and technologies do not exist and are likely completely impossible - yet it is continually suggested that they do or will, and the EU is being unreasonable in, say, not "time limiting" the backstop. To be clear: if these technologies existed or were seen to be likely to exist soon, such a time limit would be unnecessary, because the backstop would fall away as unnecessary. But it can't. You can't leave the EU without a hard border in Ireland, and that is one that should have been much, much more prominent in the campaign debate, because I only ever saw it raised as a niche concern. But then we're dealing with Imperial nostalgists who yearn for the days of Ireland knowing its place, and whose entire worldview is predicated on the UK being simultaneously a weakened state held back by the EU chains but also so powerful that the EU needs us more than we need them. And this a group who is, again, the only constituency in the country which demands that we leave no matter the cost. With this also making up the core Tory vote, there is no choice but to move on to the next tactic to try and leave if May's deal wasn't going to do it, but that deal was already so much more extreme than the centre of public opinion that the only place to go to was No Deal, an option (as previously pointed out) was expressly rejected and labelled absurd by all sides in this not three years ago.
- And so we come to today. For those people for whom they have to leave the EU - because it'll make them richer, because it'll make their mates richer, because they're petty xenophobes, because they're rabid free marketeers who believe Singapore to be a paradise rather than Disneyland with the death penalty, because their entire political careers are staked on it regardless of whether they actually give a shit about the EU (looking at our PM on this one), because they are culturally antagonistic to EU unification, because etc etc (take your pick of any or all) - then no deal is the only option. The British press has normalised it, because the British press is itself overwhelmingly Eurosceptic (if not outright viciously hostile to Europe), and it's also been normalised by the stupidity, selfishness, rank mediocrity, and shortsightedness of politicians repeating slogans like "no deal is better than a bad deal". Any form of continued European collaboration and friendliness is demonised - for example, there is no reason to have included notice that the UK wished to withdraw from Euratom as well as the EU when Article 50 was initiated, but it had to be to maintain the hard line for negotiations (a nonsense rationale - the EU has given us everything we wanted, and if No Deal happens it is entirely because of UK-internal actors).

All of this, then, leads to here: the only options are No Deal, or Remain. This is absurd. At no point were either of these options the most popular possibility in the aftermath of the referendum. Polling has consistently shown majorities for Norway-style halfway houses as the future relationship. And it should go without saying that No Deal is only an option because, for insane reasons, people in power seem to believe it's a good negotiating tactic. There is no evidence that it is, has, or will sway negotiations. There is no logic that it would. Again, the EU gave us everything we asked for in May's deal, but it still wasn't painted as extreme enough because for the minority radicals in positions of power nothing short of cutting the UK off completely from the protection and collaboration of the EU will be enough for what they want to do to this country. Throughout this process the EU has been magnanimous in a way that has shocked me as a left Eurosceptic - I saw what they did to Greece. But the UK has been a complete shitshow from start to finish, with a Conservative Party led by intellectual pygmies whose guiding instinct is power at all costs.

Anyway. This isn't directed at you specifically, really. I'm just kind of sick of being deadened to the dull thrum of bullshit beating against the shore, and furthermore how many people I thought were kind, sensible, rational people have started saying things like "well we need to just get it over with, and if No Deal is the only way then so be it." Fucking hell, it takes longer to earn a degree, for fuck's sake. There's no crisis here except for the one manufactured by the Conservatives, and the extreme right which they're terrified of losing votes to. Brexit is a process; it will take at least two decades to be sure exactly how fucked the UK economy is as a result. But rest assured - no matter how much economic forecasting is art as much as science - it will be bad. Article 50 should be withdrawn, and the only reason it hasn't is because the people driving this know that this is their only shot. Leave with No Deal, fine, you fuck the country, but at least you know nobody can reverse it. In any sane world we'd be spending 5+ years researching different options, going through consultations, maybe another referendum or two, and eventually figure out what the fuck it is that people want this country to be. That's how societies and nations are built - compromise, collaboration, and messy imperfections that you get used to living with over time. Not this mindless rush to the cliff edge.

There is no good Brexit for anyone who isn't in a position to fuck the rest of us over with it.
 
Nice to be a flippant cunt isnt it.

Well as half of them consider themselves British, you cant even get your fucking facts correct on this one.

What a fucking moronic comment. Of course they are Irish and also British and European come to that.
 
So what happens with other nations that are in the single market/customs union that border a country that isn't ? In all seriousness I can see it as an irritance more than something that can enflame the previous tensions. What specifically threatens the peace ?

Well from a quick bit of Googling it appears there is a hard border from Finland down to Romania preventing free movement of traffic, people and goods across from Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova. I'd like to think that's enough evidence to show the precedence for hard borders where EU meets neighbours that don't conform to the customs union.

The difference with Ireland being the contentious nature of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. I'm not going to profess to be any sort of expert on the issues but from my rudimentary understanding you have parties either side of that border that would claim the land either side of said border to be one and the same, or at least they wish for it to be so. You erect a fence along that border, following a well established precedent if the UK refuses to remain in a customs union, then it's pretty difficult for them to retain that illusion of a common nation/land as they can now with a freely passable border. As far as I'm aware there are no such feelings between say Finland/Russia or Hungary/Ukraine for them to have anything like the same reaction to a big wedge being driven between their two nations, if anything they're perhaps rather more glad to have that hard and fast separation.

I don't think there's really a comparable situation anywhere else with the EU, or with any of it's neighbours, to find a potential solution. Cyprus maybe the closest with the well established divide between the natives and the Turkish invaders, even then though the longing for unity is seemingly much more one sided as I think the Turkish side are much more content with their lot than longing for reunification whereas the Cypriots would obviously like their country back in it's entirety.
 
Nobody in Ireland wants a hard border. (Except extremists and gangsters). Most in the Republic don't want the North. Most in the North don't want to be governed from Dublin. All are Irish. Most Catholics and Protestants don't go to church. Most here just want to get along. The nutters just use the pope and the monarchy to legitimise their sectarianism.
 
Nobody in Ireland wants a hard border. (Except extremists and gangsters). Most in the Republic don't want the North. Most in the North don't want to be governed from Dublin. All are Irish. Most Catholics and Protestants don't go to church. Most here just want to get along. The nutters just use the pope and the monarchy to legitimise their sectarianism.
So, even if I don't dispute any of those points, would you concede that those "nutters" would resume killing innocent people if a hard border were in place?
 
If leaving the EU was the goal, why was May's deal unacceptable?
 
So, even if I don't dispute any of those points, would you concede that those "nutters" would resume killing innocent people if a hard border were in place?

What do you mean, resume? They've never gone away. They run the protection rackets, drugs trade, you name it. Bomb last week or so in Fermanagh. They rule by fear, that's what terrorists do. They WANT a hard border. The 'left' WANT a hard border. Anti democracy. Don't you get it?
Dublin drug gangs and terrorism it's the same thing. It's not a secret.
 
What a fucking moronic comment. Of course they are Irish and also British and European come to that.

Normally I would get upset by this, but seeing its you and your own little agenda go and fuck yourself cupcake (I notice you have dropped the thick cunt bit, well stick it back in if thats what you think, I dont give a fuck)

Now whatever you and I think of them, they CONSIDER themselves British (nothing wrong with that by the way, i dont like it but whatever rocks your boat), go to East Belfast and tell them your theory and see how well it goes down. The actions of the DUP over the last couple of years clearly show they certainly dont consider themselves Irish or European.
 
Normally I would get upset by this, but seeing its you and your own little agenda go and fuck yourself cupcake (I notice you have dropped the thick cunt bit, well stick it back in if thats what you think, I dont give a fuck)

Now whatever you and I think of them, they CONSIDER themselves British (nothing wrong with that by the way, i dont like it but whatever rocks your boat), go to East Belfast and tell them your theory and see how well it goes down. The actions of the DUP over the last couple of years clearly show they certainly dont consider themselves Irish or European.

Ok. I'll reinstate my thick cunt specially for you. Of course they are Irish. Not that it particularly 'rocks my boat' And I've got no agenda. Having Irish blood myself, being brought up a Catholic (in England) and having an Irish wife, how could I have an agenda? I've lived and worked in East Belfast, and there are some fine, decent people there as there are in Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny and anywhere else on the island, no doubt. Be proud of your ancestry (if you can trace it back - I know it's difficult, because the nationalists burnt most of the records - try the church records or land registry records) but don't decry everyone else who hasn't the same ancestry (let's be honest, a lot in the North are from Scottish stock), they've been there 300 years, a lot longer than some of my forefathers were in England.
 
Can't really be bothered with this shit anymore. Life is too short. Don't really want to fall out with anyone tbh. Wont be posting anything else other than Wolves or 'fun' related stuff in future. Donegal, if you are ever down this way let me know and I'll meet you for a pint and a 'chat'. We need to share our common gripes.
 
Ok. I'll reinstate my thick cunt specially for you. Of course they are Irish. Not that it particularly 'rocks my boat' And I've got no agenda. Having Irish blood myself, being brought up a Catholic (in England) and having an Irish wife, how could I have an agenda? I've lived and worked in East Belfast, and there are some fine, decent people there as there are in Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny and anywhere else on the island, no doubt. Be proud of your ancestry (if you can trace it back - I know it's difficult, because the nationalists burnt most of the records - try the church records or land registry records) but don't decry everyone else who hasn't the same ancestry (let's be honest, a lot in the North are from Scottish stock), they've been there 300 years, a lot longer than some of my forefathers were in England.

Misread me there, wasnt on about you regarding "whatever rocks your boat" comment was referring to some of the hardcore Unionist views (but of course that goes both ways),but essentially in shorthand was actually saying the same as you have above, its their choice and values (and agree have met many many decent people from the protestant community).

Would still stand by my point that they dont consider themselves Irish. Infact would argue that they missed a golden opportunity to have a foot in both camps EU & UK if they had played their hand differently, but will cause harm to their own people due to their principals.
 
Can't really be bothered with this shit anymore. Life is too short. Don't really want to fall out with anyone tbh. Wont be posting anything else other than Wolves or 'fun' related stuff in future. Donegal, if you are ever down this way let me know and I'll meet you for a pint and a 'chat'. We need to share our common gripes.

No bother happilly agree to that, had many a good night in Bray in the past.

Thanks for putting the thick cunt back in.
 
Person 1: "Don't do this - I know you think jumping off this cliff is a good idea, and the water looks inviting, but it's deceptively shallow."
Person 2: "Hmm. Not sure."
Person 3: "Nah go on mate, it's fine, trust me."

When Person 2 jumps and breaks their leg, it's pretty weird to think that's Person 1's fault rather than a combination of Person 2 and 3. Yet that's exactly what's been happening here with the rewriting of history when it comes to the "leaving the single market" issue - it is extremely telling that it's figures from the original Remain campaign warning that it might/could/will happen being pointed to as evidence, because there isn't any of the leaders of the Leave campaign. And of course you won't, because the promises of the Leave campaign as a whole were internally inconsistent (even just looking to the official Vote Leave camp, not including Leave.EU as well). Rather, there are extensive newspaper articles, TV debates, Question Time panels, tweets, and more from those who were prominent pro-Leave campaigners strenuously denying that leaving would mean also leaving the Single Market. The entire pitch for leaving was that the UK could have its cake and eat it. The idea that it would have any kind of downside was a post-referendum development, and one which has developed slowly at that.

Just because three years is a long time in our current reality, I'd like to just lay out exactly the journey we got to when getting here in terms of what was and wasn't "promised" RE: the future relationship with the EU:
Appreciate the reply – thanks for your thoughts.
In other words, you are saying the Proles didn’t know what leaving the EU means and those that promoted the idea of leaving the EU misrepresented. BUT YOU DO – YOU are right they are wrong and also very confused. I’m not sure about rewriting history but your analogy is more of an attempt to manipulate somebody else’s sense – a rather convoluted form of gaslighting delivered in a patronising manner. An Orwellian flowery waffle of a bouquet. 2+2=5 doesn’t it?
I had heard both sides of the argument and I was fully aware of the terms ECJ, Customs Union and Single Market – I am also aware of what was forecast would happen in the years after the vote until we left. Pure conjecture and jilted speculation. It didn’t happen, we didn’t get anything near the avalanche, the plague of locusts predicted, the mass unemployment – in fact investment into this country increased

BRITAIN has seen off Germany and France to be crowned Europe’s top destination for foreign investment all despite Brexit, a new business report said.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...rance-foreign-investment-report-latest-update

During the run-up to the referendum, the two Leave campaigns promised variations on our existing benefits as members of the EU while touting the benefits of leaving. This was primarily framed as being about immigration and cultural identity, and it was (mostly) argued that leaving would actually be economically beneficial to the UK economy. These promises were all based on bunk economics, the kind which relies on voters agreeing with them on the basis of "common sense" (see also: "you have to have austerity because national debt is like a credit card, and the country is like a household"), and the £350m-a-week figure is a classic example. The actual figure is completely irrelevant because the systemic economic benefits of being part of the EU dwarf whatever sums are coming and going from the Treasury. This was why the warnings about leaving the Single Market came from the Remain side, not Leave. You can't get away from Freedom of Movement without also leaving the Single Market, of course, but the Leave promise was that you could - and that it would be painless. This is important.
And the remain campaign told us we’re stronger and will become more prosperous in the EU blah blah blah. Can easily be described as bunk economics too. But again, you tell me you are right and I am wrong. The egocentric strikes again … don’t let the Proles decide they don’t know what they are doing!
Austerity isn’t bunk economics it is a necessity. The population of this country grew by 4 million between 2000 and 2010 and it will also increase by 4 million between 2010 and 2020. Between 1980 and 1990 it grew by 1 million and between 1990 and 2000 by 2 million. Freedom of Movement is a corporate tool to enable access to cheap labour in the richer countries, especially where welfare was more attractive than low paid work in the service sector. But, it’s a marvellous example of social mobility and empowerment? The failure to manage the population has been catastrophic and if public spending levels/increases had stayed the same in line with the ‘golden years of Blair’ we would currently be spending close to an extra £500 BILLION per year than what we are doing. Given the rise in population between 2010 and 2020 mirrors that of the previous decade it could be argued that should still be the case, but nonetheless it explains austerity as far more than an evil Tory doctrine to bash the poor.
There is no money left – Liam Byrne
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/12/labour-liam-byrne-lowest-point-theres-no-money-note

See the following link that details the impact of ‘Freedom of Movement’ on a country like Lithuania – there are many more.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/437qgg/lithuanias-emigration-crisis


In the immediate aftermath of the referendum, the logical inconsistencies of the Leave campaign led to immediate flailing as every kind of faction in Westminster tried to take back their own version of control. There was no mandate for any specific kind of Brexit (and there remains no mandate for any specific version) because the ballot paper only specified "Leave" or "Remain". It is impossible to argue that a Remain win would have meant a mandate for joining Schengen and the Euro for the same reason. In the weeks after the result, then two options started to appear: "hard" and "soft" Brexit. However, nobody advocated no deal. Nobody. It is suicide, and it was always recognised as suicide by even the most ardent Leave campaigners. "Hard" Brexit, at first, still meant being in the Customs Union. That's how far things have drifted.
- The dynamic that emerged after May became PM, however, drove everything towards polarisation. Her interpretation of Brexit was always that it was primarily a demand for tighter controls on immigration, which, conveniently for her, was what she had always wanted. So we got the Lancaster House speech, which again was internally inconsistent because it insisted on the UK being given everything it has now, without the membership fee, and without having to take Freedom of Movement.

So again, you say those that voted leave didn’t know what they voted for BUT YOU DO. I think it’s clear what underpinned the socio-economic philosophy of membership of the EU ie ECJ, Single-Market and Customs Union and it’s fair to surmise that leaving the EU meant we would not be privy to that club. It’s almost as if you want to write that Cameron didn’t mean LEAVE but jostle and reposition? It’s like moving from doggy to missionary when cramp set in? You cannot be half in and half out if you leave the club. Hard Brexit is the default – it is the failure to negotiate a new relationship within Europe. Unfortunately, the nearest they got was a treaty that would have left us a vassal state – that couldn’t be described as leaving the EU.


By this point "being able to negotiate our own trade deals" started to become a rallying cry for the Leave parts of the Conservative Party, many of whom have had a hard-on for radically pro-capitalist authoritarian countries like Singapore for years or decades. This was never more than a niche interest of the Tories, let alone the wider country, yet the necessary departure from the Single Market thanks to May's red line on immigration, and it provided a handy post-facto economic justification for something being primarily guided by party politics and the interpretation of the result as a backlash to immigration. Worth noting here also that while I call this a "niche" interest, that's only in terms of numbers of people interested in it; those people also tend to be wealthy white people in positions of power in business and politics, so their influence is nevertheless substantial. They tend to be those who see the trade issue as part of a larger story of the UK as seafaring/swashbuckling/entrepreneurial/insert whatever bollocks you want here that ignores the fact this country is only rich because it stole so much from the parts and people of the world it conquered, and leaving the EU is a way of restoring the UK's autonomy in this sense. These people are also often passionate fans of the Commonwealth and want a more powerful version of it - with the UK as its leader, of course - and at the extreme ends there are those who advocate some kind of "Anglophone Union" between the white settler-colonial Commonwealth states of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and possibly outliers like Ireland or South Africa, or alternatively some kind of closer connection with the US. The fact that India is never included in there except when it comes to the dogwhistly topic of "skilled immigration" is surely just an oversight, I'm sure. And, of course, it goes without saying that this constituency, which is also the only constituency which actually favours No Deal as an option according to repeating polling, is also the one best insulated from the economic shocks of Brexit and/or in positions to profit from it when it comes to opening up the UK economy to wider global interests. The UK has never been a powerful independent country; it has always only been powerful when it either had an Empire to feed off, or the EEC/EU to offer herd protection.
Leaving the EU removes various restrictions and the protectionist nature of the EU that shackles us - it allows the UK to negotiate new trade deals which they were not able to do unilaterally. You mention wealthy white people in the same breath of immigration so I quite sadly get your agenda but I knew it was coming. I won’t go there but it sort of explains the mentality that reasons why working class people are not turned on by people like Abbott and Thornberry. You fall short of calling Brexiteers racist and xenophobic but you really want to, don’t you? White privilege or is it white guilt? How dare people have an identity? eh … oh, stop and ask yourself why the people of Luton voted to leave the EU???? Agghhhh the wealthy white imperialists, those that plundered the world are leading the Proles over a cliff edge!!! The Proles who organised and empowered themselves through a healthy progressive union that existed on human values and rights. We won’t stand for this no more! The same Proles who are deemed incapable of doing the same unless they do it as part of the EU club … give me a break.

Thus began the radicalisation of the core Tory voter, which is at the core of why things are so tense. You can point to other issues in Parliament, and fuck, I know it's tempting when so many of them are such colossal asses, but really the buck stops with the wider country as far as I'm concerned. You can't stick 650 people in a room with wildly different beliefs, ideologies, principles, and red lines, and expect to be able to form a majority among them for an option which - at best, according to polling data from before and after the referendum, and until only very recently - had the support of 10-15% of the population. May went to the country to try and get a mandate for her version of Brexit and failed precisely because of this. No version of Brexit actually majority-popular, but the vague concept is, and that (along with the slight increased support overall for Remain) has been enough to sustain and feed the crisis. May tried to plot a course that would compromise between her own principles, the principles of her party, and her interpretation of the result, and failed. Who says anyone could do any better from any other party that won a majority?
The preserve of leave voter is not necessarily Tory (as you quite rightly allude). In fact, you have successfully presented the notion that a referendum was the answer (once and for all). May gave us a treaty that would have left the UK as a vassal state.

After the 2017 election Brexit therefore had "always" meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. The EU was consistent from the start about what this mean in terms of future arrangements, and the May deal reflected that - it was a Hard Brexit in all but name. The only point of contention was the backstop, which was a proposal that originated from the UK side. The reason that it causes such conniptions for Leavers in government and in the Conservative Party, however, is that it directly exposes the divide between what was promised and what was actually intended by the main Leave campaigners in positions of power in politics and business. If it was true that there was a solution to having the UK and Ireland in different customs systems without having to implement a new solid border in the north then there would be no worry; we'd have left, and those plans would be being implemented. However, such systems and technologies do not exist and are likely completely impossible - yet it is continually suggested that they do or will, and the EU is being unreasonable in, say, not "time limiting" the backstop. To be clear: if these technologies existed or were seen to be likely to exist soon, such a time limit would be unnecessary, because the backstop would fall away as unnecessary. But it can't. You can't leave the EU without a hard border in Ireland, and that is one that should have been much, much more prominent in the campaign debate, because I only ever saw it raised as a niche concern. But then we're dealing with Imperial nostalgists who yearn for the days of Ireland knowing its place, and whose entire worldview is predicated on the UK being simultaneously a weakened state held back by the EU chains but also so powerful that the EU needs us more than we need them. And this a group who is, again, the only constituency in the country which demands that we leave no matter the cost. With this also making up the core Tory vote, there is no choice but to move on to the next tactic to try and leave if May's deal wasn't going to do it, but that deal was already so much more extreme than the centre of public opinion that the only place to go to was No Deal, an option (as previously pointed out) was expressly rejected and labelled absurd by all sides in this not three years ago.
There is not a post Brexit view that contrasts with a pre-Brexit view it is merely another attempt to explain that leave voters didn’t know what they were doing. The problems in Ireland is entirely separate to the desire for the UK to leave the EU and there is no direction of causality. There is no reasoning for preventing our withdrawal because of potential conflict in Ireland. It’s like banning parachuting or skuba diving because somebody once died when doing it. It’s more a failure to find resolution to negotiate parity and because in any case it’s an ideal excuse for remainers – it serves to keep the remain dream alive.

And so we come to today. For those people for whom they have to leave the EU - because it'll make them richer, because it'll make their mates richer, because they're petty xenophobes, because they're rabid free marketeers who believe Singapore to be a paradise rather than Disneyland with the death penalty, because their entire political careers are staked on it regardless of whether they actually give a shit about the EU (looking at our PM on this one), because they are culturally antagonistic to EU unification, because etc etc (take your pick of any or all) - then no deal is the only option. The British press has normalised it, because the British press is itself overwhelmingly Eurosceptic (if not outright viciously hostile to Europe), and it's also been normalised by the stupidity, selfishness, rank mediocrity, and shortsightedness of politicians repeating slogans like "no deal is better than a bad deal". Any form of continued European collaboration and friendliness is demonised - for example, there is no reason to have included notice that the UK wished to withdraw from Euratom as well as the EU when Article 50 was initiated, but it had to be to maintain the hard line for negotiations (a nonsense rationale - the EU has given us everything we wanted, and if No Deal happens it is entirely because of UK-internal actors).
Or more likely people don’t wish to be part of a failing union that many feel is a centralised corporate sponsored tool that has done absolutely nothing to promote social justice. Totally subjective. No deal represents a failure to negotiate a new relationship within Europe. It was the base standard, the default position that was avoidable. The xenophobia remarks are extremely cheap although that appears to be a lazy aspersion to cast by globalists or rather those who see the union of people through rose tinted spectacles. A union that has seen Neil Kinnock and Mandelson rise to the fore. One was heavily rejected by the Proles and the other had to resign twice…

All of this, then, leads to here: the only options are No Deal, or Remain. This is absurd. At no point were either of these options the most popular possibility in the aftermath of the referendum. Polling has consistently shown majorities for Norway-style halfway houses as the future relationship. And it should go without saying that No Deal is only an option because, for insane reasons, people in power seem to believe it's a good negotiating tactic. There is no evidence that it is, has, or will sway negotiations. There is no logic that it would. Again, the EU gave us everything we asked for in May's deal, but it still wasn't painted as extreme enough because for the minority radicals in positions of power nothing short of cutting the UK off completely from the protection and collaboration of the EU will be enough for what they want to do to this country. Throughout this process the EU has been magnanimous in a way that has shocked me as a left Eurosceptic - I saw what they did to Greece. But the UK has been a complete shitshow from start to finish, with a Conservative Party led by intellectual pygmies whose guiding instinct is power at all costs.

Anyway. This isn't directed at you specifically, really. I'm just kind of sick of being deadened to the dull thrum of bullshit beating against the shore, and furthermore how many people I thought were kind, sensible, rational people have started saying things like "well we need to just get it over with, and if No Deal is the only way then so be it." Fucking hell, it takes longer to earn a degree, for fuck's sake. There's no crisis here except for the one manufactured by the Conservatives, and the extreme right which they're terrified of losing votes to. Brexit is a process; it will take at least two decades to be sure exactly how fucked the UK economy is as a result. But rest assured - no matter how much economic forecasting is art as much as science - it will be bad. Article 50 should be withdrawn, and the only reason it hasn't is because the people driving this know that this is their only shot. Leave with No Deal, fine, you fuck the country, but at least you know nobody can reverse it. In any sane world we'd be spending 5+ years researching different options, going through consultations, maybe another referendum or two, and eventually figure out what the fuck it is that people want this country to be. That's how societies and nations are built - compromise, collaboration, and messy imperfections that you get used to living with over time. Not this mindless rush to the cliff edge.

There is no good Brexit for anyone who isn't in a position to fuck the rest of us over with it.

I too am deadened by the dull thrum of bullshit especially the egocentric nature of some remainers and my replies are not directed at you specifically. May’s deal would have left us a vasal state – it was Brexit in all but name. Kind, rational people refuse to accept the results of the referendum and the recent Euro elections and have therefore done everything in their power to rewrite, reinterpret the whole process for their own agenda. No deal is a fuck up that will quickly result in large protestations by the likes of Mr VW and Mr Peugeot who will soon realise that they are being right royally screwed by clowns who had three years to prevent it.
 
Well I read all of that. It's almost like Papper is repeating the same factless bullshit and arguing against points he's made up over and over and over again to any poster.

I'm always amazed when virulent leave voters are challenged they are exposed as self interested cunts only wanting their own view to be heard in a factless wilderness they want to live in.

I wish they'd all fuck off with Weekend warrior Mark, Jacob Rees Cunt and other assorted wank hammers like Farage onto another little island where they can try and build their own empire.

I wouldn't bother replying to this Papper as I'm not interested in reading our unfettered bullshitnand frankly hope you slope off back to the Mix from whence you came.
 
Hah, well - I tried.

My only response to this is this: Not once did I say that Leave voters did not know what they wanted. Indeed, I consistently and deliberately avoided falling into that trap, and if you read what I wrote - the literal words as written - you'll see that you've projected almost everything you've actually responded to.

Of course you knew what you voted for, just like I know what I voted for. Everyone knows what they themselves voted for. This whole mess is because of this tendency to keep insisting that everyone else on your side thought the same thing as you, and that means your own specific version of Brexit is the "correct" or "only logical" one.
 
My personal view is that if you have to resort to calling people cunts, you’ve probably lost the argument.
 
Back
Top