REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deutsch Wolf]

The backstop exists btw because T-Boz decided to call an election (thinking she could crush opposition along the way) and failed. Hence them being in thrall to the DUP, of all people.

These are Tory failures, not "Remainer" failures. The whole thing is an internal Tory squabble that has somehow been projected onto every UK resident and citizen.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Theres no point in constitutional reform. There's no public appetite for it and it's boring. We've got more important things to worry about...

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It does seem odd that we've spent centuries just relying on the unspoken code of "ok, just don't be a cunt" :icon_lol:

But then people like the big jolly Latin speaking* fat bastard, or so I'm told. So you reap what you sow.





*He doesn't really speak Latin, no more than I speak Dutch or Italian

 

[Templeton Peck]

If Parliament has to choose between no Corbyn and no deal, its the latter every time. If that's the choice given to the electorate, probably the same result tbf

Yep. The thought of some mild social democracy is just too much to bear.

 

[Templeton Peck]

It does seem odd that we've spent centuries just relying on the unspoken belief of "ok, just don't be a cunt" :icon_lol:

But then people like the big jolly Latin speaking* fat bastard, or so I'm told. So you reap what you sow.





*He doesn't really speak Latin, no more than I speak Dutch or Italian

He's a proper cunt too make no mistake. Camerons probably just having a nice early evening walk with Sam now. Or maybe preparing to go out for dinner.

 

[visage]

I would much rather Johnson and the EU agree to remove the back-stop and find a solution in that respect - even if it means we remain in the single market/customs union for a very necessary extended transitional period. I think Johnson's hand has been forced due to those that which to remain in the EU at any cost. The three year farce in Westminster is due to MP's refusing to accept the result of the referendum and the inept May.

The backstop is the insurance policy if no solution can be found.

 

[Papper]

The backstop is the insurance policy if no solution can be found.

True, a perpetual insurance policy that had no cut off date which goes against the unilateral ideals of the leave vote. The treaty was not worth the paper it was written on. It was a fuck up that resulted in stalemate and the inevitable NO-Deal scenario that these clowns should be debating and resolving right now instead of running off to Betty like naughty boys.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The EU won't remove the backstop. There is no ground to give on that front. I don't think the EU will renegotiate anymore. The deal on the table is the only possible deal.

The UK did this, it organized this farse of a party. Well, it's time to clean up and deal with the consequences.

Remaining in the customs union removes the need for a backstop and that would require a renegotiation of the existing withdrawal agreement or be the foundation of a new withdrawal agreement. I am as sure as I can be that if the position of the U.K. government was to be part of a customs union then the EU would be willing to renegotiate. The only reason they refuse to renegotiate is because we have set out a series of red lines (now blood red lines) that make renegotiation pointless.

There are other possible deals, but nothing that our current government will consider.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

True, a perpetual insurance policy that had no cut off date which goes against the unilateral ideals of the leave vote. The treaty was not worth the paper it was written on. It was a fuck up that resulted in stalemate and the inevitable NO-Deal scenario that these clowns should be debating and resolving right now instead of running off to Betty like naughty boys.

This is just wrong. You are re-writing history. There are no unilateral ideals of the leave vote. There are numerous ways in which we could have left the EU from barely leaving to all out and everything in between. Neither of the leave campaigns went all out campaigning on the idea of leaving without a deal and it was a political choice rather than an ideal to leave the single market and customs union.

 

[visage]

Remaining in the customs union removes the need for a backstop and that would require a renegotiation of the existing withdrawal agreement or be the foundation of a new withdrawal agreement. I am as sure as I can be that if the position of the U.K. government was to be part of a customs union then the EU would be willing to renegotiate. The only reason they refuse to renegotiate is because we have set out a series of red lines (now blood red lines) that make renegotiation pointless.

There are other possible deals, but nothing that our current government will consider.

Labour won't join the CU either. They want a special UK specific CU that the EU won't agree to.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Labour won't join the CU either. They want a special UK specific CU that the EU won't agree to.

That’s not what Leo Varadkar said earlier this year and Donald Tusk described it as a “promising way out of the impasse”

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Tories are losing Ruth Davidson over this. Nice work, one of the few actual decent people you have, gone because you employ a fucking lunatic.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

One of the almost certainties of this is a massive explosion of the Conservative Party. How the hell do grandees like Clarke, Heseltine and Major sit in the same party as ERG hardliners? It just doesn't seem politically or personally possible for them.

 

[nimrod]

Either in or out of the EU the UK is never going to become the land of economic utopia in fact I think the UK faces a shitstorm in the next couple of decades irrespective of Brexit. My sole preserve is the emergence of alternatives, of change in Westminster that become far more credible without outside interference/centralisation of corporate power. The buck will stop with Westminster and we are already beginning to see the disentegration of mainstream political parties because nobody trusts them any more.

you are literally describing your own "economic utopia" and with no substance about how it can be achieved. this is delusional. read the first part of your first sentence.

repeating soundbites will not make them reality

no prominent brexiteer is proposing a different economic model unless you can tell me differently? so you will simply strengthen corporate bargaining positions and get more of the same, dressed up to be socially acceptable and economic by whichever party has had the nod from the nation and backed by whichever media they are in the pocket of.

 

[Premier Quality]

The EU won't remove the backstop. There is no ground to give on that front. I don't think the EU will renegotiate anymore. The deal on the table is the only possible deal.

The UK did this, it organized this farse of a party. Well, it's time to clean up and deal with the consequences.

It’s interesting, if there’s no deal, what do they think will happen? The exact same thing they are trying to avoid, Ireland has to put up a hard border.

 

[Premier Quality]

The backstop exists btw because T-Boz decided to call an election (thinking she could crush opposition along the way) and failed. Hence them being in thrall to the DUP, of all people.

These are Tory failures, not "Remainer" failures. The whole thing is an internal Tory squabble that has somehow been projected onto every UK resident and citizen.

I’d say it’s a failure all round tbh. May has to take the lions share obviously, because she fucked it all up amazingly badly - but Barnier negotiated an unworkable deal - he has to share blame for that. The EU likewise have had the opportunity to find a deal that works for both sides, but have stuck to this naive view of the backstop. The remainer MP’s and the ERG are just the opposite sides of the same uncompromising coin. Phil Hammond helped string this out for three years from the inside of the government he was theoretically working for.

At the end of the day, we’re coming out hard. Blaming one side is incredibly naive - none of the people involved take any credit whatsoever.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I'm not sure what other deal Barnier is supposed to come up with when T-Boz red lines of "no freedom of movement" were diametrically opposed to no hard border in Ireland?

It was utterly fucking impossible to square that circle so it would have taken a very long drawn out negotiation to try and find something that might work, but some stupid wench signed Article 50 and set the clock off without even working out a position. It's on her. And now it is on her as well that this bimbling idiot populist is trying to fuck our parliamentary constitution up to appease a bunch of hardline cretins and extremists.

 

[Premier Quality]

You do see though, that not agreeing a deal leads to a hard border in Ireland right?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Of course. It's the default position.

So the EU offer backstop to try and find a solution and T-Bags reliance on a bunch of religious nutjobs in Northern Ireland who would actually REALLY REALLY like a hard border as they are Unionists who basically aren't great fans of the Republic means it is impossible to achieve. Her two biggest mistakes were signing Article 50 before having any idea what the EU position was going to be (despite the fact it was pretty bloody obvious) and calling the election that emasculated her majority and left her relying on the DUP who were never going to agree to the idea she was trying to negotiate.

Awful woman. Awful premier. Amazingly only the second worst in British history as Boris has managed to overtake her without even having to speak from the dispatch box yet.

 

[Premier Quality]

Of course. It's the default position.

So the EU offer backstop to try and find a solution and T-Bags reliance on a bunch of religious nutjobs in Northern Ireland who would actually REALLY REALLY like a hard border as they are Unionists who basically aren't great fans of the Republic means it is impossible to achieve.

That’s one way of looking at it - the other is that they saw a way to trap the UK into never actually leaving. Both views are subjective rather than factual though.

Her two biggest mistakes were signing Article 50 before having any idea what the EU position was going to be (despite the fact it was pretty bloody obvious) and calling the election that emasculated her majority and left her relying on the DUP who were never going to agree to the idea she was trying to negotiate.

I’d add a third of not having a cabinet that agreed with her aims - if the team behind you is pulling in conpletely opposite directions, it’s always going to be hard to achieve.

Either way, one of the EU’s stated most important outcomes is no hard border in Ireland. As it stands, they’ve failed on that stated aim. Even the most hardcore remainer has to admit that?

Awful woman. Awful premier.

No argument here

Amazingly only the second worst in British history as Boris has managed to overtake her without even having to speak from the dispatch box yet.

I’d probably step away from the booze mate, that seems a tad over emotional