REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[nimrod]

No, that was in respect of you calling Skinner a dinosaur and not necessarily his views on leaving the EU.

The effects of leaving the EU are pure conjecture - in fact the vote for any party is pure conjecture but that's democracy for ya ... we take our choices etc

Leaving or remaining in the EU is not specifically aligned to any party but when a mandate is given in two general elections, a referendum and the recent EU elections those public servants in Westminster are duty bound to deliver it. The treaty proposed by May would have left us a vassal state which was in no way delivering that mandate.

Three years have been wasted by an inept Prime Minister and those in Brussels and Westminster who appear hell-bent on reversing a democratic decison they didn't agree with. It is a complete fuck up and on November 1st Johnson needs to call a general election.

we shouldn't forget that the 'xxx years wasted' and "complete fuck up" was entirely predicted as a consequence of a vote to leave.
these things tend to happen when you have no plan.
and if there's now a newly imagined plan for fighting back against the corporates (which I think was one of your past stated objectives) by selling out to American corporates, then that's a deeply flawed plan.

 

[Papper]

we shouldn't forget that the 'xxx years wasted' and "complete fuck up" was entirely predicted as a consequence of a vote to leave.
these things tend to happen when you have no plan.
and if there's now a newly imagined plan for fighting back against the corporates (which I think was one of your past stated objectives) by selling out to American corporates, then that's a deeply flawed plan.

I hear you, but would rather Westminster be wholly accountable in respect of party persuasions towards globalism/corporatism. I am happy that the buck will stop at Westminster. We then have a democratic choice without outside interference from what I consider to be a entity that is purely geared towards supporting corporations rather than people.

 

[SLA]

I hear you, but would rather Westminster be wholly accountable in respect of party persuasions towards globalism/corporatism. I am happy that the buck will stop at Westminster. We then have a democratic choice without outside interference from what I consider to be a entity that is purely geared towards supporting corporations rather than people.

But you don't want Westminster to have a say in what happens now with regards to Brexit? So the buck only stops with them in certain cases.

 

[Papper]

But you don't want Westminster to have a say in what happens now with regards to Brexit? So the buck only stops with them in certain cases.

They have a say ie they propose a way forward which we should vote on - when the mandate has been delivered ie leave the European Union. The referendum was a democratic tool that decided whether we leave or stay in the union. If the democratic process is flawed and needs revision then fair enough but as it stands there is no legitimacy in reversing the decision that was made.

 

[nimrod]

I hear you, but would rather Westminster be wholly accountable in respect of party persuasions towards globalism/corporatism. I am happy that the buck will stop at Westminster. We then have a democratic choice without outside interference from what I consider to be a entity that is purely geared towards supporting corporations rather than people.

lol, well hey, if papper is happy then why should anyone else's reasoned argument carry any weight.

i've not seen any signs to reverse the trend towards what you describe as globalism/corporatism. brexit is highly likely to deliver the opposite. which is why you get corporate apologists and architects of the banking crisis like digby jones loving the idea of being outside the EU. what they dislike is a body strong enough to stand up to the corporates on minimum standards. ultimately corporates will like a divide and rule strategy where they can arbitrage their way around different jurisdictions, their incentive schemes and differential tax rules. it's what they do so it's not difficult to see that after the initial upheaval they will still be left holding an even better negotiating hand when it comes to UK investment.

sorry to say, but to me you sound like a fifth columnist for the corporates. you've got a principle with virtually zero chance of delivering your desired end result and an extremely high chance of further empowering those seeking the opposite. it's already happening.

 

[Papper]

lol, well hey, if papper is happy then why should anyone else's reasoned argument carry any weight.

i've not seen any signs to reverse the trend towards what you describe as globalism/corporatism. brexit is highly likely to deliver the opposite. which is why you get corporate apologists and architects of the banking crisis like digby jones loving the idea of being outside the EU. what they dislike is a body strong enough to stand up to the corporates on minimum standards. ultimately corporates will like a divide and rule strategy where they can arbitrage their way around different jurisdictions, their incentive schemes and differential tax rules. it's what they do so it's not difficult to see that after the initial upheaval they will still be left holding an even better negotiating hand when it comes to UK investment.

sorry to say, but to me you sound like a fifth columnist for the corporates. you've got a principle with virtually zero chance of delivering your desired end result and an extremely high chance of further empowering those seeking the opposite. it's already happening.

The Party that meets my ideals does not currently exist but I see increasing disenchantment with our choices. The distrust of Politicians is endemic - the current system needs to be swept aside. Brexit is a start but conditions where total accountability exists at Westminster will be a catalyst for change, for new ideas and new momentum that is centred on human values and social justice. I feel the same sentiment will exist in other countries and a different type of globalism will emerge.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Sorry, but "it is fairly obvious that a Labour negotiated Brexit would likely have included both a customs union and single market access" is simply not possible.

The EU have repeatedly said that the four freedoms are not negotiable. You can't cherry pick.

So you can't have both SM access while also stopping FoM, which is what Labour want. You also can't have SM access while negotiating your own trade deals, for obvious reasons.

EU accepted Labour's alternative plans in February.

 

[Templeton Peck]

I'm a Remainer but there are definitely problems with the EU. The Euro is dreadful and EU law forbids the kind of state intervention favoured by Labour and other leftish parties. That said, I doubt the EU would actually be able to do much if we did adopt a social democratic party.

 

[visage]

EU accepted Labour's alternative plans in February.

No. They 'welcomed them'. In diplomatic terms that's just being polite.

 

[visage]

I'm a Remainer but there are definitely problems with the EU. The Euro is dreadful and EU law forbids the kind of state intervention favoured by Labour and other leftish parties. That said, I doubt the EU would actually be able to do much if we did adopt a social democratic party.

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

Nothing in EU law would block Labours plans.

 

[Templeton Peck]

No. They 'welcomed them'. In diplomatic terms that's just being polite.

Right.

 

[leedswolf]

I'm a Remainer but there are definitely problems with the EU. The Euro is dreadful and EU law forbids the kind of state intervention favoured by Labour and other leftish parties. That said, I doubt the EU would actually be able to do much if we did adopt a social democratic party.

EU law doesn't allow unfair competition which doesn't actualy translate as 'no public (state) ownership'.

 

[nimrod]

The Party that meets my ideals does not currently exist but I see increasing disenchantment with our choices. The distrust of Politicians is endemic - the current system needs to be swept aside. Brexit is a start but conditions where total accountability exists at Westminster will be a catalyst for change, for new ideas and new momentum that is centred on human values and social justice. I feel the same sentiment will exist in other countries and a different type of globalism will emerge.

you don't say - if you're telling me you're leaping in the dark more in hope than with any discernible delivery plan, who am i to disagree. i mean which of the leading brexiteers are calling for an overthrow of corporate ideology? other than thinly veiled or even explicit concerns about globalism from the odd person looking to point the conspiracy finger at a generalised group, it just doesn't feature. once the power plays result in some form of "stable" government it'll be another round of UK PLC 'open for business' to try and woo all the globalists back. the general brexit supporting populace is literally wanking itself off over any positive business news or trade deal news mate. how have you not noticed?

 

[visage]

Right.

Look at the negotiating terms....

One of Labours 6 tests is 'Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?'

But the EU, in the very first negotiating guideline says 'A non-member of the Union, that does not live up to the same obligations as a member, cannot have the same rights and enjoy the same benefits as a member.'

So how do you negotiate a deal that meets both criteria?

 

[Kenny]

The Queen will be asked by the government to suspend Parliament days after MPs return to work - and a matter of weeks before the Brexit deadline.

The BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, says it will make way for Boris Johnson's new administration to hold a Queen's Speech - laying out the government's future plans - on 14 October.

But it means MPs are unlikely to have time to pass any laws that could stop the prime minister taking the UK out of the EU without a deal on 31 October.

A No 10 source said: "It's time a new government and new PM set out a plan for the country after we leave the EU."

..

 

[Tony Towner]

And the hijacking of the country is complete.

 

[Nando]

Complete and utter bunch of fucking cunts.

 

[SLA]

Someone's taking back control, but it won't be our elected representatives.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

They are forcing Corbyn and Swinson’s hand. The only way to stop this is vote of no confidence and those can’t agree on what happens afterwards.

It’s anti-democratic and utterly despicable

 

[Langers]

Absolutely terrifying. Yet sadly so very predictable.

Still - will of the people, ay it.

Like fuck did people vote for this.