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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Well, the commonly made argument is that Labour can't fully embrace remain because of their Leave voting constituencies.

And yet Corbyn, this master orator, this fearless campaigner, this principled politician, has not once stood up and told them what brexit would do to them.

And so they've ended up stuck between both sides.
 
Templeton Peck said:
What do you think he could have done?
Click to expand...

What Viz said.

A great leader would've galvanised his party and others against the government and persuade them to either get the deal that everybody was happy with or campaign for no deal.

The fact he's inert and has the charisma of a concrete post persuades nobody that he is capable of delivering a bottle of milk let alone Brexit.

As it tuned out nobody could actually decipher what the Labour position was other than wanting an election which is the equivalent of walking into a greengrocer and asking for a T-Bone steak.
 
Johnny75 said:
What Viz said.

A great leader would've galvanised his party and others against the government and persuade them to either get the deal that everybody was happy with or campaign for no deal.

The fact he's inert and has the charisma of a concrete post persuades nobody that he is capable of delivering a bottle of milk let alone Brexit.

As it tuned out nobody could actually decipher what the Labour position was other than wanting an election which is the equivalent of walking into a greengrocer and asking for a T-Bone steak.
Click to expand...

What is this deal that “everybody would have been happy with”? There are a significant minority of people who want either to remain or leave without a deal so they wouldn’t be happy with any deal. The EU ideally wanted a deal that included both a customs union and continuing membership of the single market which the Conservative Party weren’t happy with although it is fairly obvious that a Labour negotiated Brexit would likely have included both a customs union and single market access it is something that has never had enough numbers in this Parliament to gain traction.

Whichever way you go, there isn’t anything that “everyone would be happy with” so how is anyone, let alone the Labour Party, going to achieve it? The only way to resolve Brexit is by having a Parliament where a government has a healthy working majority to push through an outcome through the normal legislative channels. This Parliament does not have that and hasn’t for years.
 
But nobody bar the Labour Party wanted a GE. Not Mp's nor the electorate. It doesn't matter how many times you say it the strategy failed spectacularly and just like Theresa May there was no plan B.

Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant everybody within the Labour Party and those other parties who didn't particularly want Brexit but would accept it if it was a customs union and common market alternative.

A good leader would be able to galvanise a group of people and campaign effectively to that goal.

Corbyn is incapable of such a thing.

Boris Johnson, whilst a chancer is clearly able to get people behind him. Labour need a version of Johnson with substance.
 
Johnny75 said:
But nobody bar the Labour Party wanted a GE. Not Mp's nor the electorate. It doesn't matter how many times you say it the strategy failed spectacularly and just like Theresa May there was no plan B.

Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant everybody within the Labour Party and those other parties who didn't particularly want Brexit but would accept it if it was a customs union and common market alternative.

A good leader would be able to galvanise a group of people and campaign effectively to that goal.

Corbyn is incapable of such a thing.

Boris Johnson, whilst a chancer is clearly able to get people behind him. Labour need a version of Johnson with substance.
Click to expand...

But what is the deal you think everyone would be happy with that this mythical leader can achieve? Johnson has got some supporters of Brexit behind him but it is unlikely that he will retain that support should he be unable to meet his own deadlines.
 
It's not really for me to put up a deal, it's for the politicians to do so. (And it wouldn't really matter what I put up you'd criticise it and I can't be bothered to play that game).

But that is missing the point I was making to TP. It is that Corbyn is such an abysmal leader he is incapable of leading anybody to anything, even if the deal was perfect.
 
Johnny75 said:
It's not really for me to put up a deal, it's for the politicians to do so. (And it wouldn't really matter what I put up you'd criticise it and I can't be bothered to play that game).

But that is missing the point I was making to TP. It is that Corbyn is such an abysmal leader he is incapable of leading anybody to anything, even if the deal was perfect.
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You suggested there was a deal that everyone would be happy with and even with your clarification the facts don’t stack up. If you believe Brexit is a mistake there is no deal that will make you happy, if you are an ideological purist then only a no deal Brexit will do. It is my personal belief that a customs union/single market solution (Labour’s preference) would have met the requirements of the 2016 referendum and been acceptable to the majority who live in between the two extremes of remain and no deal - but such an outcome never had sufficient support in the Conservative Party or Parliament as a whole.

I didn’t “miss your point”, I just don’t agree that a great leader would have been able to have any other effect unless they also had political power. Theresa May was the Prime Minister but didn’t have political power. Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the opposition didn’t have political power and neither did the Libs or SNP. Seemingly only the ERG and DUP had any real political power post 2017 and even their’s was limited.

There is no perfect Brexit and because of the referendum there is no perfect remain. Our political system is divided and the only way out of this is a new parliament that delivers a majority government - it is numbers not great leadership that will break the impasse. If Johnson calls an election and wins a healthy majority on the back of a no deal manifesto pledge, it won’t be because of his great oratory skills. If the opposition parties get their act together to form an anti Brexit/second referendum/anti Tory tactical election and can form a coalition government with a healthy majority then remain is back in play...but it will have nothing to do with leadership skills.

Unicorns and “yeah but Corbyn” isn’t a game I can be bothered to play either.
 
Sorry, but "it is fairly obvious that a Labour negotiated Brexit would likely have included both a customs union and single market access" is simply not possible.

The EU have repeatedly said that the four freedoms are not negotiable. You can't cherry pick.

So you can't have both SM access while also stopping FoM, which is what Labour want. You also can't have SM access while negotiating your own trade deals, for obvious reasons.
 
Here you go.
e9d931e1b1bc437c9a046a9b398e265c.jpg
 
Visage said:
Bollocks.

Skinner is a fucking dinosaur.
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His election promo for the last GE was laughable. Committed to good attendance, low expenses and not drinking in parliamentary bars. Absolute nothing about what he was going to campaign for.

Solid effort to maintain the red tie/tweed jacket outfit 24/7 though, looks bizarre tootling round in his Prius.
 
Visage said:
Bollocks.

Skinner is a fucking dinosaur.
Click to expand...

Therefore, so are the traditional values of the Labour Party. Quite how Corbyn was selected is anybody's guess - but he too once held the views on the EU espoused by the 'beast'. The Labour movement has one hell of an identity crisis which wasn't exactly resolved by Blairism. I sense a shift away from peoples values to global corporate values and as such a peoples movement for social justice is defunct ... in fact if self determination is exercised by the proles those in Westminster ignore them anyway.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
The only problem is “yeah but Corbyn”. I guarantee that the current Labour Party membership would only elect a left wing leader so while the face might change, the politics won’t.
Click to expand...

He is seen as toxic by many people that would consider voting Labour. Whilst he is leader, like it or not, too many voters won't even look at his policies as they cannot see beyond him. It isn't his policies that are unelectable, it is him, remove him and Labour's vote will go up significantly.
 
I'm afraid he is. As is Ken Clarke really.

And we need both of these to be helping us out against a vile man who uses his buffoon persona to try and make the public love him even while he fucks us up. It's odd, but we actually are going to need Skinner and Clarke to team up for the greater good.
 
Papper said:
Therefore, so are the traditional values of the Labour Party. Quite how Corbyn was selected is anybody's guess - but he too once held the views on the EU espoused by the 'beast'. The Labour movement has one hell of an identity crisis which wasn't exactly resolved by Blairism. I sense a shift away from peoples values to global corporate values and as such a peoples movement for social justice is defunct ... in fact if self determination is exercised by the proles those in Westminster ignore them anyway.
Click to expand...
Leaving the EU will make poor people poorer, cost working class jobs, widen inequality, and make investment in public services more difficult.

So no, Skinners desire to leave the EU is very much not aligned with Labour values.
 
Visage said:
Leaving the EU will make poor people poorer, cost working class jobs, widen inequality, and make investment in public services more difficult.

So no, Skinners desire to leave the EU is very much not aligned with Labour values.
Click to expand...

No, that was in respect of you calling Skinner a dinosaur and not necessarily his views on leaving the EU.

The effects of leaving the EU are pure conjecture - in fact the vote for any party is pure conjecture but that's democracy for ya ... we take our choices etc

Leaving or remaining in the EU is not specifically aligned to any party but when a mandate is given in two general elections, a referendum and the recent EU elections those public servants in Westminster are duty bound to deliver it. The treaty proposed by May would have left us a vassal state which was in no way delivering that mandate.

Three years have been wasted by an inept Prime Minister and those in Brussels and Westminster who appear hell-bent on reversing a democratic decison they didn't agree with. It is a complete fuck up and on November 1st Johnson needs to call a general election.
 
So we leave the EU on the 31st October on in all likelihood a No Deal platform and then have a General Election to see what people think of it?
 
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