REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deutsch Wolf]

The Tories aren't winning shit.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

So power is more important than doing what's best for the country? We do pretty much have two indistinguishable parties then.

How is handing power to the Conservatives “best for the country”? There is barely any change to the EU voting intention, best case scenario for those who want to remain is a slender victory for that option. If the Labour Party went into an election as the party of remain the leave vote would go to the Conservatives and some of the remain vote nationally splits between Labour, Nats and Lib Dems. Conservatives back in power with a majority and a renewed mandate to leave the EU.

It’s not about “power being more important” it’s about knowing that this Conservative government will deliver Brexit but it would be much easier if they had a majority. Politics are so divided at the moment down this binary leave/remain conundrum and it is the Labour Party that is the most vulnerable and has the most to lose....unless/until the Conservative Party implodes.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The Tories aren't winning shit.

There are 27 Labour marginals in the NW alone, the majority of them voted to leave. It wouldn’t take much of a swing to the Conservatives (the party of Brexit) from the Labour Party if they were to come out for remain for Labour to lose seats. Replicate that in the NE and Midlands marginals and Labour lose 30-40 seats without breaking sweat. The Conservatives win and win big.

 

[Tredman]

How is handing power to the Conservatives “best for the country”? There is barely any change to the EU voting intention, best case scenario for those who want to remain is a slender victory for that option. If the Labour Party went into an election as the party of remain the leave vote would go to the Conservatives and some of the remain vote nationally splits between Labour, Nats and Lib Dems. Conservatives back in power with a majority and a renewed mandate to leave the EU.

It’s not about “power being more important” it’s about knowing that this Conservative government will deliver Brexit but it would be much easier if they had a majority. Politics are so divided at the moment down this binary leave/remain conundrum and it is the Labour Party that is the most vulnerable and has the most to lose....unless/until the Conservative Party implodes.

So I'll ask again, your and the Labour party's preference is for everyone in the country to become worse off?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

So I'll ask again, your and the Labour party's preference is for everyone in the country to become worse off?

What do you mean “your”? Is your first response to being opposed to personalise it? I have set out why I think the Labour Party could lose support as a remain party...rather than make spurious accusations about my motives why don’t you try and counter my contribution with construtive debate? Your response only serves to underline my point that people are so fixed in their opinion that they can only see outcomes that serve their own view - everything is binary. Why not set out how a Labour Party that campaigns to remain in the EU, to overturn the 2016 referendum, is able to do that.

I voted to remain, I would vote remain again if I had the opportunity, I believe that we are better off remaining than leaving. I don’t believe that giving the Conservative Party a renewed mandate to leave the EU helps achieve the objective of not leaving the EU.

 

[Tredman]

What do you mean “your”? Is your first response to being opposed to personalise it? I have set out why I think the Labour Party could lose support as a remain party...rather than make spurious accusations about my motives why don’t you try and counter my contribution with construtive debate? Your response only serves to underline my point that people are so fixed in their opinion that they can only see outcomes that serve their own view - everything is binary. Why not set out how a Labour Party that campaigns to remain in the EU, to overturn the 2016 referendum, is able to do that.

I voted to remain, I would vote remain again if I had the opportunity, I believe that we are better off remaining than leaving. I don’t believe that giving the Conservative Party a renewed mandate to leave the EU helps achieve the objective of not leaving the EU.

When I was a member of the Labour party then I would use we, since I imagine you are a member then you should accept some personal responsibility for their actions and results.

I have no faith in the current labour party whatsoever, without a complete change they will not win power and even if they did they will not deliver sustainable change.

The biggest issue facing this country is that we are going to be manifestly poorer for the next decades purely due to a preventable decision. If the Labour party had any backbone they would have been honest from the start and compaigned whole-heartedly against Brexit. They did not; Corbyn, the Labour party and their members have to accept that their dogma is going to harm the people of this country and be honest that they would rather live in a poor country governed by a socialist government.

 

[Del Woppio]

Corbyn tables no confidence!

 

[The Saturday Boy]

When I was a member of the Labour party then I would use we, since I imagine you are a member then you should accept some personal responsibility for their actions and results.

I have no faith in the current labour party whatsoever, without a complete change they will not win power and even if they did they will not deliver sustainable change.

The biggest issue facing this country is that we are going to be manifestly poorer for the next decades purely due to a preventable decision. If the Labour party had any backbone they would have been honest from the start and compaigned whole-heartedly against Brexit. They did not; Corbyn, the Labour party and their members have to accept that their dogma is going to harm the people of this country and be honest that they would rather live in a poor country governed by a socialist government.

So as a member you slavishly accepted every decision the Labour Party made. I guess we are different.

 

[darlowolf64]

Corbyn tables no confidence!

No confidence in the PM which is a clever move. All those Cons who voted against May last week are in a bit of a spot... Do they now, suddenly have confidence in her leadership?
If he'd gone after the government he would have lost but this way there is a chance of getting at her

 

[Del Woppio]

I'm confused now, it's apparently a motion of no confidence in the prime minister, which, even if he wins, doesn't actually mean anything.

 

[darlowolf64]

I'm confused now, it's apparently a motion of no confidence in the prime minister, which, even if he wins, doesn't actually mean anything.

They are trying to force the vote on Brexit to be made this week, if she loses that (when), she is totally undermined and has to go thus forcing a GE and suspension of the exit

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I'm confused now, it's apparently a motion of no confidence in the prime minister, which, even if he wins, doesn't actually mean anything.

It means quite a lot if she loses and it is something the DUP can support. If May loses a vote of no confidence of Parliament then she will have to resign. Then Parliament gets to choose what happens next and a second referendum is probably on.

 

[Tredman]

So as a member you slavishly accepted every decision the Labour Party made. I guess we are different.

Not at all, hence being an ex-member. However, if your sole point of view is the Labour party's point of view then you should expect to challenged on it. This is too important for party politics.

 

[Del Woppio]

They are trying to force the vote on Brexit to be made this week, if she loses that (when), she is totally undermined and has to go thus forcing a GE and suspension of the exit

It means quite a lot if she loses and it is something the DUP can support. If May loses a vote of no confidence of Parliament then she will have to resign. Then Parliament gets to choose what happens next and a second referendum is probably on.

But technically she could cling on to power like the demented selfish cockroach that she is?

Or would she be more likely to call a snap GE, which she'd probably win?

 

[lemonjelly]

There has been practically no domestic politics now for about three years. It's scandalous. Councils are literally going bankrupt as we speak.

It's the Tory obsession with power, they'd rather piss away a month now and stay at the helm (doing nothing) than admit that it's all over.

What they've done to this country since 2010 is shocking.

I think brexit actually plays into their hands. They've been able to use it as a screen to maintain all the horrific policies and measures since 2010. Austerity never came close to ending, it became entrenched, and then brexit has been used to maintain it. If it follows through, it'll likely remain, owing to the reduced tax intake, plus there's the argument of the divorce bill needing paying, more paying down the debt blah blah.

The ramifications of this issue grow exponentially daily, and the action/inaction of labour will also become critical. this could become a pivotal moment in uk politics. there are clear scenarios where it is possible to see a split in both major parties. ERG and co one side, more liberal eu friendly tories on the other. Harder socialist labour, and more "new" labour. lib dems become the 5th party. even raises the possibility of more pr going forwards.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It means quite a lot if she loses and it is something the DUP can support. If May loses a vote of no confidence of Parliament then she will have to resign. Then Parliament gets to choose what happens next and a second referendum is probably on.

It's a decent move. Especially with his question about collective responsibility earlier. Combined that is powerful.

BUT - unlike a vote in the government, I understand it that confidence in individual ministers isn't in the same strict timeframe. I think she will try and kick the can down the road until after the meaningful vote if she can. Deliberate prevarication like this to try and scupper the vote of parliament is well out of order though.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

There are 27 Labour marginals in the NW alone, the majority of them voted to leave. It wouldn’t take much of a swing to the Conservatives (the party of Brexit) from the Labour Party if they were to come out for remain for Labour to lose seats. Replicate that in the NE and Midlands marginals and Labour lose 30-40 seats without breaking sweat. The Conservatives win and win big.

The Tories have won one outright majority since 1992 and they have no-one to lead the party right now. They're completely shot by eight and a half years of austerity and the shambles that has been Brexit.

If they were ever going to win a huge majority, it would have been last year. But they didn't.

 

[Tredman]

It's a decent move. Especially with his question about collective responsibility earlier. Combined that is powerful.

BUT - unlike a vote in the government, I understand it that confidence in individual ministers isn't in the same strict timeframe. I think she will try and kick the can down the road until after the meaningful vote if she can. Deliberate prevarication like this to try and scupper the vote of parliament is well out of order though.

Vote taking place tomorrow it looks like.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Don't stand on remain. Stand on Article 50 extension.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Not at all, hence being an ex-member. However, if you're sole point of view is the Labour party's point of view then you should expect to challenged on it. This is too important for party politics.

Where did I outline “my point of view”? You have assumed that from what I thought was simply an explanation of the Labour Party’s position and how it might play out. I have been a member of the Labour Party since 1987 and at times have vehemently opposed their policies. I don’t accept your premise that you have to be all in or all our or that I can’t consider how certain decisions are reached and what consequences might result without being held personally responsible for them.