REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Penk Wolf]

Whether it's best for the UK or not the more you hear reports from a percentage that voted (There are some that voted leave for the right reasons) to leave the more you realise that leave should not have won.

 

[SLA]

On the apocalyptic predictions from the Remain side, and the various other institutions - yes, they seem over the top but we won't actually know if they were accurate for years. Just because the world hasn't stopped spinning immediately is no guarantee that we're not in for a world of pain down the line.

But if the last couple of days has proven anything it's that the orchestrates and supporters of Brexit are not big on long-term planning.

 

[Johnny75]

On the apocalyptic predictions from the Remain side, and the various other institutions - yes, they seem over the top but we won't actually know if they were accurate for years. Just because the world hasn't stopped spinning immediately is no guarantee that we're not in for a world of pain down the line.

But if the last couple of days has proven anything it's that the orchestrates and supporters of Brexit are not big on long-term planning.

That's because the majority of the selfish fuckers who voted that way will probably be dead in a few years anyway.

 

[Tony Towner]

£ now $1.34. Zero leadership, blame who you want is going to see the £ trashed tomorrow.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I agree fully with T Dan.

Sorry, I'm not happy with the result and I won't 'deal with it". I won't say "well played" to the other side. This isn't a fucking football match - it's a monumentally important decision based on a campaign of rhetoric, scaremongering and racism/xenophobia. I've every right to be fucked off by it and not want to shake hands with the 'victors'.

The fact is that a LOT of people made their decision based on ignorance and bigotry. I'm not tarring all leave voters with that brush by any means but the atrocious campaigns by both sides as well as the alarming volume of sheer ignorance by voters - that clearly swung the result the way of leave - has got us into a right old mess that will have rumifications in the short, medium and long term. It will effect me and my children.

I thought my views would mellow after a couple of nights sleep but they haven't. I'm disgusted at the attitude of so many people in this country who voted for such negative reasons and had no idea about the consequences.

I'm just pleased the Euros are back on to divert my attention. Game of Thrones finale as well.

99% agreed with this (I'm not on board with Game of Thrones though).

This isn't a case of people 'not accepting the result'. I haven't seen anyone on here or indeed on any form of social media bemoaning the fact that the vote was rigged or that it's all some kind of conspiracy - which Farage, for example, was pre-empting before it was a done deal. It is clear that there was a majority and the rules were that if one side won by even one vote then they won. That bit is fair and a matter of record.

What is not black and white is how those votes were won, the motives and plans of those who have won, the future of this country (and by extension, our futures) and how many of us now feel entirely disenchanted with and disenfranchised from our own nation because it isn't the same place in which we woke up on Thursday. I don't see why those of us who feel that way should shrug our shoulders, say 'meh, democracy' and just take whatever nonsense it is that our esteemed leaders-to-be throw at us, no matter how much it conflicts with our entire political ideologies.

 

[thehistorymakers]

99% agreed with this (I'm not on board with Game of Thrones though).

This isn't a case of people 'not accepting the result'. I haven't seen anyone on here or indeed on any form of social media bemoaning the fact that the vote was rigged or that it's all some kind of conspiracy - which Farage, for example, was pre-empting before it was a done deal. It is clear that there was a majority and the rules were that if one side won by even one vote then they won. That bit is fair and a matter of record.

What is not black and white is how those votes were won, the motives and plans of those who have won, the future of this country (and by extension, our futures) and how many of us now feel entirely disenchanted with and disenfranchised from our own nation because it isn't the same place in which we woke up on Thursday. I don't see why those of us who feel that way should shrug our shoulders, say 'meh, democracy' and just take whatever nonsense it is that our esteemed leaders-to-be throw at us, no matter how much it conflicts with our entire political ideologies.

Many people didn' t want it to be the same. They wanted things to change. It seems some people who had a comfortable life didn't want change. Well many people haven't felt any benefits of the EU. Even the Labour party recognise that workers wages have gone down and there was lots of pressure on our infrastructure. Successive governments, of both political divides have loverlooked the working class.
I didn't like any of the politicians, in both camps. I hope we are represented by better politicians, who can bring our people back together.

I also hope all immigrants in the UK are reassured about their future worth in the UK and are given permanent residencies. There is no place for racism or intolerance in any society.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Bit different when it's a straight yes or no choice though. You now have a situation where 48% of those who voted have the exact opposite of what they want. That isn't healthy at all.

I would think you have had close on 60% who weren't happy with the EU or didn't want to be in for at least 25 years. We never had a vote, but we had to get on with it. It was about time we did. Did you know we were promised twice a referendum by Blair and he lied to us twice and we never got a vote?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't care. Referenda are the hallmark of quasi-benevolent dictators and we don't have anywhere near enough political knowledge or engagement in our country to make them work. We don't traditionally have them and we shouldn't be demanding them all over the place for decisions which are there to be made by elected officials. Because they're a shit democratic tool, they work in binary (and politics is not binary) and they result in division and inevitable huge dissatisfaction on at least one side.

If unilateral withdrawal from the EU were such a popular idea, how come no major parties have ever run with that in their manifesto?

 

[thehistorymakers]

I don't care. Referenda are the hallmark of quasi-benevolent dictators and we don't have anywhere near enough political knowledge or engagement in our country to make them work. We don't traditionally have them and we shouldn't be demanding them all over the place for decisions which are there to be made by elected officials. Because they're a $#@! democratic tool, they work in binary (and politics is not binary) and they result in division and inevitable huge dissatisfaction on at least one side.

If unilateral withdrawal from the EU were such a popular idea, how come no major parties have ever run with that in their manifesto?

The question should be, if so many people wanted to leave the EU, which they did, why wasn't it put to the people before? Were they frightened of democracy?

 

[thehistorymakers]

I don't care. Referenda are the hallmark of quasi-benevolent dictators and we don't have anywhere near enough political knowledge or engagement in our country to make them work. We don't traditionally have them and we shouldn't be demanding them all over the place for decisions which are there to be made by elected officials. Because they're a $#@! democratic tool, they work in binary (and politics is not binary) and they result in division and inevitable huge dissatisfaction on at least one side.

If unilateral withdrawal from the EU were such a popular idea, how come no major parties have ever run with that in their manifesto?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564312/Labours-promises-on-an-EU-referendum.html

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Because holding a referendum is not a very good idea. To draw a tortured analogy, renegotiating agreements through skilful diplomacy and manoeuvering a position to the advantage of Britain would be on the level of the casino robbery in Ocean's Eleven. Calling a referendum and going with the result no matter what would be chucking a housebrick through someone's front window.

If you want to leave the EU, vote for a party which explicitly campaigns that they will seek to do so. That is democracy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564312/Labours-promises-on-an-EU-referendum.html

That's not campaigning for unilateral withdrawal from the EU. Have another go.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Because holding a referendum is not a very good idea. To draw a tortured analogy, renegotiating agreements through skilful diplomacy and manoeuvering a position to the advantage of Britain would be on the level of the casino robbery in Ocean's Eleven. Calling a referendum and going with the result no matter what would be chucking a housebrick through someone's front window.

If you want to leave the EU, vote for a party which explicitly campaigns that they will seek to do so. That is democracy.



That's not campaigning for unilateral withdrawal from the EU. Have another go.

Promises of referendums on the EU, that weren't kept.

I can't see how the remain camp can complain, if they couldn't win with, both political parties, Obama, The IMF, the banks, and the EU on their side, it is clear that the people didn't want to stay in the EU. If you couldn't convince the populace, with that amount of power and persuasion, then the people clearly didn't want to stay in the EU. I completely disagree with what you said about not having a vote and a voice. That sounds a litlle like the Soviet Union.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Do you feel referenda are an effective democratic tool? If so, why do we see them so rarely, not just in Britain but across the entire Western world? And how do you square them having a binary result with respect to a non-binary situation?

There are masses of government policy with which I fundamentally disagree and have done for the last six years. I don't expect to be handed an individual vote on each and every one of them. I get to vote for a party which as far as possible, plans to do the opposite. That is what I get for being part of a modern democracy. Pretending that the government of the day has some kind of moral obligation to directly ask the public what we should do all the time, on matters of intrinsic national importance, is absurd and has not been part of any kind of modern democracy anywhere.

Of course the Remain camp can "complain". There are at least 16 million of us. Unless you feel it's now fair game that we're all effectively disenfranchised? Which doesn't seem very democratic to me.

By the way I'm still waiting to hear of the major party manifesto which explicitly states that they will pursue an agenda, no holds barred, of leaving the EU. Not promises on a referendum. A promise that if you vote us in, you give us the mandate to withdraw from the EU, lock stock and barrel. Because if it's such an obviously popular idea and easy vote winner because the masses demand it, one of them must have included it at some point? Right?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Do you feel referenda are an effective democratic tool? If so, why do we see them so rarely, not just in Britain but across the entire Western world? And how do you square them having a binary result with respect to a non-binary solution?

There are masses of government policy with which I fundamentally disagree and have done for the last six years. I don't expect to be handed an individual vote on each and every one of them. I get to vote for a party which as far as possible, plans to do the opposite. That is what I get for being part of a modern democracy. Pretending that the government of the day has some kind of moral obligation to directly ask the public what we should do all the time, on matters of intrinsic national importance, is absurd and has not been part of any kind of modern democracy anywhere.

Of course the Remain camp can "complain". There are at least 16 million of us. Unless you feel it's now fair game that we're all effectively disenfranchised? Which doesn't seem very democratic to me.

By the way I'm still waiting to hear of the major party manifesto which explicitly states that they will pursue an agenda, no holds barred, of leaving the EU. Not promises on a referendum. A promise that if you vote us in, you give us the mandate to withdraw from the EU, lock stock and barrel. Because if it's such an obviously popular idea and easy vote winner because the masses demand it, one of them must have included it at some point? Right?

I think you will find that UKIP had it in their manifesto and as they took about 20% of the vote in the last election, Cameron pressured from his own party put the referendum in the the Conservative manifesto, to stop the growth of UKIP.

It was one man/ woman one vote. Remain lost. Maybe you need to look at the people who represented the remain camp and how they ran their campaign. In the end the leave camp won and that is democracy.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

UKIP are not a major party, as I'm sure you well know. They also won around 13% of the vote in 2015, not 20%.

I have never defended the Remain campaign as it was intensely tepid and ineffectual.

You haven't addressed any of the other parts of my post (or indeed serial parts of other posts I've made in the last hour or so) which is up to you, but this isn't a debate I'm going any further with tonight if you're going to ignore all the valid bits you don't feel like answering.

 

[arklowolf]

I think you will find that UKIP had it in their manifesto and as they took about 20% of the vote in the last election, Cameron pressured from his own party put the referendum in the the Conservative manifesto, to stop the growth of UKIP.

It was one man/ woman one vote. Remain lost. Maybe you need to look at the people who represented the remain camp and how they ran their campaign. In the end the leave camp won and that is democracy.

A n accurate summation.

 

[thehistorymakers]

In the end you had all the power and influence on the remain side and you lost. It was a clear question and we voted to leave. I respected the decision, when I thought leave had lost. It isn't cricket to moan about the result because you lost.

 

[arklowolf]

Who cares what the inners think anyway? I'm hoping it will split the eu up altogether. I can't stand inequality and despise the middle classes. Working class me.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Which bit of this wasn't clear?

This isn't a case of people 'not accepting the result'. I haven't seen anyone on here or indeed on any form of social media bemoaning the fact that the vote was rigged or that it's all some kind of conspiracy - which Farage, for example, was pre-empting before it was a done deal. It is clear that there was a majority and the rules were that if one side won by even one vote then they won. That bit is fair and a matter of record.

I accept that the result is the result. I don't feel I'm obligated to also agree that it's the right result and that there is no debate to be had on whether this is a good or bad thing. Or indeed whether there should have been a result to be had in the first place.

It's not a case of being a 'sore loser', however much you may wish to paint that picture, not that I think it'll fool anyone. I don't think there's any merit in continuing this tonight as a) it's late and b) you seem intent on a familiar path of not answering questions and firing off at odd tangents with a healthy dollop of assuming why people think what they do.

See you tomorrow no doubt.

 

[thehistorymakers]

UKIP are not a major party, as I'm sure you well know. They also won around 13% of the vote in 2015, not 20%.

I have never defended the Remain campaign as it was intensely tepid and ineffectual.

You haven't addressed any of the other parts of my post (or indeed serial parts of other posts I've made in the last hour or so) which is up to you, but this isn't a debate I'm going any further with tonight if you're going to ignore all the valid bits you don't feel like answering.

Good night , Deutsch.